How Does the System Push & Shape Us?

[Reposted from Philosophy Sub-Forum]
https://wwws.forummotion.com/t877-why-aren-t-there-more-whistleblowers-in-finance

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

ScoutsHonor wrote:

Look in the mirror and ask yourself: 'Is the City turning me into a nasty person?'

YES!

That's the strength of the new systems being deployed along with the mechanized mind: humans are being driven by the systems that we live in and not the other way around. I had tihs discussion with someone about 5-years ago, and he said to me that we ought to start fighting for "Ponerized Free Zones" where normal people can live.

Is there more specific material to be found relating to this issue: that we're being driven by the system, not the other way around? [Is this not what Ellul was continuously asserting?] Can you elaborate on some of the highlights of that discussion - if you remember?

I am still not really clear enough on the way in which Technology "pushes" us...

C1 wrote:

All of the material that I've been posting on Mechanized Mind (Macy Conferences), Cybernetics, Complexity Theory... these are ALL techniques being used to shape the system and therefore shape us. This is the really the crux of what is being installed now.

Why don't you start a thread on this topic (How the System Pushes Us), and we can use that to get into it. It's rehash of what we've been discussing, but I think a thread like this can help pull it all together.

ScoutsHonor wrote:

[Reposted from Philosophy Sub-Forum]
https://wwws.forummotion.com/t877-why-aren-t-there-more-whistleblowers-in-finance

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

ScoutsHonor wrote:

Look in the mirror and ask yourself: 'Is the City turning me into a nasty person?'

YES!

That's the strength of the new systems being deployed along with the mechanized mind: humans are being driven by the systems that we live in and not the other way around. I had tihs discussion with someone about 5-years ago, and he said to me that we ought to start fighting for "Ponerized Free Zones" where normal people can live.

Is there more specific material to be found relating to this issue: that we're being driven by the system, not the other way around? [Is this not what Ellul was continuously asserting?] Can you elaborate on some of the highlights of that discussion - if you remember?

I am still not really clear enough on the way in which Technology "pushes" us...

C1 wrote:

All of the material that I've been posting on Mechanized Mind (Macy Conferences), Cybernetics, Complexity Theory... these are ALL techniques being used to shape the system and therefore shape us. This is the really the crux of what is being installed now.

Why don't you start a thread on this topic (How the System Pushes Us), and we can use that to get into it. It's rehash of what we've been discussing, but I think a thread like this can help pull it all together.

I think that's what is really needed, a thread that will pull it all together, hopefully.

Okay, I'll start to work on some input to this very important thread. Sorry that I haven't had more time recently to contribute.

Edit: Just to provide some initial orientation,let me kick this off by posting what I just posted in the Mathematics' Shortcoming? thread...
https://wwws.forummotion.com/t759p15-mathematics-shortcoming#4783

Quote :

I think the most important takeaway from Godel is that man's formal systems cannot prove all known truths, therefore one must have FAITH that those truths are indeed TRUE. Hence, man's systems ultimately rely on faith.

Hence, I find the Science vs God argument so ridiculous... for scientists & mathematicians like to posture their arguments from the perspective that all of their proofs can be proved by their own formal systems, and therefore there is no need for faith. Well, that's a deception.

Of course, elitists have no interest in this notion, as it reduces their perceived power over others. For, if man could prove all known truths, then perception of man's power over nature is complete. But, we're not there yet, and we don't even know if we'll ever get there.

So, what are we doing to get around this, to get around this notion that our systems are not "complete", why we're creating a virtual reality comprised of computers, a reality where we can more easily trick the participants that that system is complete, hence, all proveable. But yet again, it's slight of hand, and Godel showed that via his Godel Numbering scheme (explored, in process, in another thread).