Religion's Attack on Faith

For the majority of my life, I've had a negative reaction to all religions. But what I never seemed to understand was that Faith is a very different animal than man-designed religion, and that the two are entirely unrelated. Hence, my thesis that I would like to discuss in this thread is how religion has been deliberately designed and implemented in order to usurp Faith, and to dissuade people from Faith by deliberately sabotaging it through front-religions and controlled religious-actors.

I'm going to need to go back and read some more Ellul in order to produce any meaningful comments. So, for now, this thread will serve as a placeholder that I hope to develop over time.

Looking forward to it, C1.

well. i think catholicism and tv evangalism are two good examples of man getting between the people and God. i dont meand to offend any catholics here. i mean most of my relatives are catholics. its just the whole idea of the pope as figurehead instead of God seems wrong to me. and tv evangalism kinda does the same thing. they're all like send us money and you'll get a reward from God. or send us money and we'll pray for you..................... i think faith should be personal and religions should be more open minded.

hmmmm... I look forward to your post....

I'm glad you brought up how religion can be different than faith. I went through a strict christian school system and they valued faith in words only. Even though they said faith was important, what they actually taught was to believe what they say and repeat the correct mantras, if not you would be judged by others as not having faith.

After rejecting all of that nonsense and then viewing myself as an atheist and then now a questioning/searching agnostic, I feel like I have more faith than I ever had. At least I am more realistic about what I know and do not know, and hopefully have shrugged off all forms of blind faith in other people's ideas and agendas.

One thing I think I can be certain of, there is far more beauty in the natural structure of the world and the universe than in the hell created by man called society. That alone makes it worthwhile to find out as much as possible about where it all came from.

I believe in God. I am a bit of a pluralist when it comes to religion in that i think all of the major faiths - Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, share basic truths and values and so are inherently the same at the heart. what happens is that people get truths mixed up due to mistranslation and misinterpretation and not understanding how a culture is tied to language and will define things differently in details. it seems to be a matter of semantics. i think that until i become fluent in every language that the primary basic scriptures were written in, i don't have the authority or knowledge to knock other faiths down. i have muslim friends, buddhist friends, hindu friends, friends of no religion, and what is a truth i know is that we all want the same things - a strong, healthy family unit, peace within ourselves, healthy minds and bodies, access to knowledge in all forms, access to good teachers and good education, peace, peace, peace, economic security and stability, freedom from tyranny and oppression, crime free communities, shared cultural diversity, friendly people, a loving and caring people all around the world. and peace, peace, peace. i think that, as with any effective, powerful anti-establishment movement, the major religions have ultimately been hijacked at some level and to some degree and distorted and manipulated in order to re-establish their authority and power, control the masses, promote division and disunity, and promote their self-interested political agendas.

so i suggest that the best thing to do would be to learn hebrew, aramaic, greek, arabic, hindu, and chinese, and read all of the holy books in their most original form. obviously the most of us have neither the time, the discipline, nor the ability to learn all of those languages, therefore the second best option is to find the best translations of all of the holy books, or read several translations, with the most open mind and open heart. turn off the noise that surrounds that intends to distract, disconnect, and disorient us. search within, because God planted the seed of truth within each and everyone of us. all we have to do is do our part to best cultivate that seed.

Kraig wrote:

I'm glad you brought up how religion can be different than faith. I went through a strict christian school system and they valued faith in words only. Even though they said faith was important, what they actually taught was to believe what they say and repeat the correct mantras, if not you would be judged by others as not having faith.

After rejecting all of that nonsense and then viewing myself as an atheist and then now a questioning/searching agnostic, I feel like I have more faith than I ever had. At least I am more realistic about what I know and do not know, and hopefully have shrugged off all forms of blind faith in other people's ideas and agendas.

One thing I think I can be certain of, there is far more beauty in the natural structure of the world and the universe than in the hell created by man called society. That alone makes it worthwhile to find out as much as possible about where it all came from.

Very interesting, intelligent post. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.
I pretty much share the same vantage point.

I really like your statement about having more faith than you ever had-- as I think your trust is well placed, in that you've placed your faith in objective truth. Can't be much safer or more rational than that, imo.

Perhaps we can discuss this at greater length, that'd be interesting.

Faith is a dirty word, faith is tied at the hip of religion. Faith means to blindly cling to a belief, even against common sense or evidence to the contrary. In essence, it means choosing to be a happy slave. Hope on the other hand, hope is all we have left.

warren321 wrote:

Faith is a dirty word, faith is tied at the hip of religion. Faith means to blindly cling to a belief, even against common sense or evidence to the contrary. In essence, it means choosing to be a happy slave. Hope on the other hand, hope is all we have left.

Faith, in the sense of trust, is what I mean. As in, "I have faith in reason"...and such.

Unfortunately, I see nothing hopeful anywhere...much as I hate to admit it. I have resolved to live pretty much on the basis of one who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness, and who decides to live the time remaining in the most interesting/pleasant way possible. Anything else would just be kidding myself...sorry for the glum world view...

Btw, what is this True Forced Loneliness thing you mentioned? Just curious...

Basically, it's eugenics conditioning, some part of this is biological, there is a biological prejudiced against lower status males, which bleeds into everything from healthcare, employment, family policy, housing, Steve Moxon wrote a book called "The Women Racket" which goes into the science behind all this...

But if you look into the TFL it breaks down how many millions of low status males are being heavily pushed out of society and forced to grow old and die off alone, due to a hitlist of high expectations of superficial criteria, not tall enough, not rich enough, doesn't drive a mercedes benz, doesn't work a white collar job, isn't a "bad boy," (ie ability to create pointless drama), I think maybe you get the idea (most women know within the first 5 seconds if they wanna know a man or not, they start screening men for flaws immediately once they meet them, as if she has no flaws of her own... Some part of this is biological but it's accelerated by social conditioning)... And there are a select few women also getting pushed out, but for obvious reasons it effects men more so than women. This is a problem that does occur somewhat in nature, however, not to the levels it has risen today.... TFL (the condition, not the movement) is the fall out of the eugenics system. The higher the fall-out rate rises, the hotter the gender war becomes.... But they (TFL "movement"-- though it's not really a movement, no funding or no rallies or anything like that) make grand points as for the social behavior and social conditioning between the genders.. It's forced in the since that nothing you can do will ever live up to the ungodly expectations women demand from men (I am speaking from experience), so it's forced, kinda like rape is forced... It's like the opposite extreme of rape... Most ppl living TFL are flat out treated like freaks by their opposite gender, and have gotten so used to being rejected that we can read it in peoples' body language when we're being stereotyped out, often even stereotyped out by our own family members even.. They talk about the bullying, all of that too..... Granted it's a fucked up society we've been pushed out of, and I prefer to be a loner, but humans are somewhat social creatures by nature, even the most devout loner has some subjective level of social needs they have to get met.

basically a guy named Bill Greathouse started a "movement," if you will (but it's more like a support group for sufferers of TFL), raising awareness about this stuff and they talk level 1 reality against NWO but nothing very deep though. In a sense, while I can relate to their grievances (I've lived it myself, I have Asperger Syndrome, but not all TFLers are autistic), it has became somewhat like a religion with many of the followers, many who just can't get past their personal experiences to seek the bigger picture.

What I will say for them is that Bill touched on a subject, gave it a description and a name, that I honestly do not think the elites wanted people to figure out. I mean yeah trolls can say something to the effect that "oh well you won't die if you don't get any" or "if you don't find anyone," or "so what if your pushed out of society and ridiculed and verbally and mentally abused, so what if your feewings are huwt," sort of crap (and believe me I've developed thick skin). But all those exact same arguments could be made against a black man speaking out about not being able to drink from the same fountain as a white man back in the 60's, or not being able to eat at the same restaraunts... Fact is, we realize today that this behavior was wrong, because people deserve to be treated like human beings. Yet we repeat it... In fact, when you really analyze it, it's another form of segregation, blacks got beaten down by angry racist cops and angry racist mobs, today's "undesirable" men are beat down by the masses in a similar sense, being bullied by the numbers and what not (sometimes even to the death, and while some ppl living this lifestyle, myself for example, learn how to stand up and fight back, still there's not much I can do against a small mob or a 250+ lb. assailant or w/e... I'm about 5'4, 115 lbs)... Basically this also unlocks a whole ton of other hidden prejudices within this prejudice, heightism for one, discrimination based on height)... If I could post links I'd send you a video that helps to explain it.... But really TFL is just one small piece of a bigger puzzle.

That being said I'm not really looking for anyone anymore, I'd actually rather be alone than to deal with the usury and drama and bullshit that goes into today's dating scene... So-called truthers have even admitted to me that it's all a game. It's rigged, and honestly, if this is all it has to offer, I'd rather be alone. I don't need anyone. But I'll still incorporate the knowledge I have gained from it into my overall message.... And (in the unlikely event that I run into a woman who isn't all about this superficial shit and we do actually click, and she doesn't mind me talking out about all the things I speak about) I'll still keep the option open, but I'm not really expecting much.

But still when the whole of the world pretty much tells you all your life in no uncertain terms "Your not welcome here, your an inferior freak of nature and a burden to the gene pool, go die," it tends to make one very sore on the human race (this is why you get Va. Tech, Columbine High, George Sodini, etc, not condoning what they did though).... I do believe in certain individuals, I believe in humanity, but generally speaking I don't like humans.

warren321 wrote:

That being said I'm not really looking for anyone anymore, I'd actually rather be alone than to deal with the usury and drama and bullshit that goes into today's dating scene... So-called truthers have even admitted to me that it's all a game. It's rigged, and honestly, if this is all it has to offer, I'd rather be alone. I don't need anyone. But I'll still incorporate the knowledge I have gained from it into my overall message.... And (in the unlikely event that I run into a woman who isn't all about this superficial shit and we do actually click, and she doesn't mind me talking out about all the things I speak about) I'll still keep the option open, but I'm not really expecting much.

But still when the whole of the world pretty much tells you all your life in no uncertain terms "Your not welcome here, your an inferior freak of nature and a burden to the gene pool, go die," it tends to make one very sore on the human race (this is why you get Va. Tech, Columbine High, George Sodini, etc, not condoning what they did though).... I do believe in certain individuals, I believe in humanity, but generally speaking I don't like humans.

Two of the nicest men I know are about your height. Methinks you have created a tragedy where none exists. Self-fulfilling prophecies are the trickiest....our minds are subtle and require *correction* sometimes, I'm thinking.

So, stop expecting rejection in other words, and you likely will Not receive it. Although- I would recommend adding some weight and muscle tone along with it, because it's simply more appealing to look at. IMO.

Now, promise to let me know when you have your first date.........& no charge for this **great** advice. [j/k]

See I'm not alone in this problem, I've tried all your advice and all the other usual bs advice people give, it got me nowhere. Nor did it get any of those millions of other men (and a few women) anywhere. It's not a "self-fulfilling prophecy" as you put it, it's merely speaking from experience. You have not walked in any of our shoes. We've looked in bars, clubs, libraries, parks, museums, everywhere you could possibly think to look. No success. We've done tons of work to improve ourselves, no success... I improve myself for me, nobody else... I've heard the lame-ass "confidence" cop-out all my life too.... When it has nothing to do with confidence, because most of those "bad boys" don't have a lick of confidence, I look around at those "thugs" who constantly obsess over their reputation, constantly obsess about what others think about their clothes or their car, or w/e.... I've been confident all my life in my abilities as a person, I still am. I don't need external validation to feel my life has meaning (even though society goes to great lengths to try their damndest to make me feel like I do). It doesn't matter how confident I am, the game is rigged. Like everything else in life, is rigged. Politricks are rigged, the slums are rigged, all these slave religions are rigged, money systems are rigged... Hell the entire world is rigged. The system tells us what clothes to wear, what cars to drive, who to vote for (which is also rigged, and pointless), what foods to eat, etc etc. Why would this be any exception?

I'll put it to you this way, there is a fine line between being positive and being gullible. Lets say you keep trying to stand up, and every time you do, I push you back down. After about 10,000 times, is it a "self-fulfilling prophecy" to expect that if you try to get back up I'll push you back down again?..... Or is it merely learning from experience? If your still trying to get back up after the 10,000th time, then your very gullible.

My own family members stereotype me out, I'm so used to being rejected I can read it in peoples' body language. And I have Aspergers, I'm not even supposed to be able to read body language that well (but then again I honestly don't think most people who are not autistic can, it's an ineffective and inefficient way of communicating). Hell teachers stereotyped me out when I was in my school years. They don't have to actually say it, actions speak louder than words. Actions aside, as I said, I got to where I can read it in peoples' body language. How many times do teachers allow kids to gang up on other kids and bully them and then they just go off like "kids will be kids," so the bully grows up continuing this behavior because he was never taught any better (and this shit doesn't stop after highschool). I've heard grown adults even making excuses "bullying is a part of life." Yeah, unless they happen to be on the business end of it, right?

It's not that I can't fight for myself because I came up in the gutter and taught myself to street fight (call it survival), and learned about pressure points, but I'm only one man, if I am up against a mob or a crowd of lets say 4 or 5 people (or more), or if I am up against a professional weight lifter, what do I do? (I'll answer that, I grab a bat, or an ax, or anything I can swing with and I don't stop swinging for shit... If there are multiple attackers, I run like hell). Still though no matter how big and bad someone thinks they are, there's someone out there somewhere bigger and badder.

Plus (and I'm not saying looks have no part in it, but they are way overblown and made into more than it should be, TV and advertisements and everything else is constantly pushing these images in our faces of what a man or a woman is supposed to look like), I prefer to take people on their character, and not their appearance. I'd quickly take a woman who is a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1-10 in physical attractiveness over a 9 or 10 with a really spoiled, shitty, psychotic attitude. I don't see looks being that imparative beyond 10%.... I'm not even a bad looking guy, facially I am very attractive. But even average in today's society (especially for men) is the new ugly. It isn't so easy to just up and build muscle, especially when you come from a line of small men and you have an extremely high metabolism, and your 32 yrs old.

But a woman can be 300 lbs and showers once a month, lives at home with her parents and does nothing, yet, she still has all the pick. And while I don't blame women for that because it isn't their fault, I do blame them to some extent when they take advantage of this though. If women had to court men 50/50 they wouldn't have such high expectations. This is a major part of why women are generally pickier than men, because they can afford to be. It's a power high. Maybe some part of that is biological and I'm not denying that, this is where the matriarchal element in human social structures comes from, men fighting other men (and in more primitive societies even dying) for the "priveledge" of sleeping with a woman (this makes women into property and men into lower than property), and the patriarchal element is more in the physical construction of society. Fact of the matter is, if we go forward with this system it will end in androgyny, if we go backward back to hunting and gathering, you have a society where hierarchy was an evolutionary survival tactic (because nature is the most brutal tyrant of all), which LEAD to "civilization." And will lead to it again. Biology isn't etched in stone either, so it fails to be the universal cop out people wanna use it for. If we didn't have the ability to challenge our nature, women wouldn't be holding jobs. Ultimately, we need to destroy hierarchy and redefine what makes men into men and women into women, and not towards an androgynous agenda either... We need to get off the linear path of forward and backward, and cut into the forrest somewhere. Currently, so-called men will throw other men under the bus and cut down on and betray their own gender for the "priveledge" of being a good pussy slave (please excuse my French, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just making a point). If I could share links here, I could drop you a link that will show you this. Today's so-called men are totally whipped, and will judge manhood on how whipped another man is.... And honestly, I'm not being one sided either, I don't hate women....

To sit here and say our fault and we're doing this to ourselves, is like blaiming a child who has been molested for their own molestation. I don't necessarily say all of "accepted" society knows they are doing this, some are just conditioned where they don't see it, but lots of them do know it, at the backs of their minds, rather or not they will admit to it (they do have ways of telling on themselves without even realizing it). They actually do make a sub or semi-conscious effort at this. So-called men and women... It's not really such a black and white thing though.

But see now you've got me talking about 2 seperate issues here, that do connect, but hell as I said TFL is just a small part of it, the fall-out of the eugenics system. My aim isn't to talk about my personal problems (besides, I don't want a mate anymore anyhow), I'm actually trying to point out something much bigger.

warren321 wrote:

See I'm not alone in this problem, I've tried all your advice and all the other usual bs advice people give, it got me nowhere. Nor did it get any of those millions of other men (and a few women) anywhere. It's not a "self-fulfilling prophecy" as you put it, it's merely speaking from experience. You have not walked in any of our shoes. We've looked in bars, clubs, libraries, parks, museums, everywhere you could possibly think to look. No success. We've done tons of work to improve ourselves, no success... I improve myself for me, nobody else... I've heard the lame-ass "confidence" cop-out all my life too.... When it has nothing to do with confidence, because most of those "bad boys" don't have a lick of confidence, I look around at those "thugs" who constantly obsess over their reputation, constantly obsess about what others think about their clothes or their car, or w/e.... I've been confident all my life in my abilities as a person, I still am. I don't need external validation to feel my life has meaning (even though society goes to great lengths to try their damndest to make me feel like I do). It doesn't matter how confident I am, the game is rigged. Like everything else in life, is rigged. Politricks are rigged, the slums are rigged, all these slave religions are rigged, money systems are rigged... Hell the entire world is rigged. The system tells us what clothes to wear, what cars to drive, who to vote for (which is also rigged, and pointless), what foods to eat, etc etc. Why would this be any exception?

I'll put it to you this way, there is a fine line between being positive and being gullible. Lets say you keep trying to stand up, and every time you do, I push you back down. After about 10,000 times, is it a "self-fulfilling prophecy" to expect that if you try to get back up I'll push you back down again?..... Or is it merely learning from experience? If your still trying to get back up after the 10,000th time, then your very gullible.

My own family members stereotype me out, I'm so used to being rejected I can read it in peoples' body language. And I have Aspergers, I'm not even supposed to be able to read body language that well (but then again I honestly don't think most people who are not autistic can, it's an ineffective and inefficient way of communicating). Hell teachers stereotyped me out when I was in my school years. They don't have to actually say it, actions speak louder than words. Actions aside, as I said, I got to where I can read it in peoples' body language. How many times do teachers allow kids to gang up on other kids and bully them and then they just go off like "kids will be kids," so the bully grows up continuing this behavior because he was never taught any better (and this shit doesn't stop after highschool). I've heard grown adults even making excuses "bullying is a part of life." Yeah, unless they happen to be on the business end of it, right?

It's not that I can't fight for myself because I came up in the gutter and taught myself to street fight (call it survival), and learned about pressure points, but I'm only one man, if I am up against a mob or a crowd of lets say 4 or 5 people (or more), or if I am up against a professional weight lifter, what do I do? (I'll answer that, I grab a bat, or an ax, or anything I can swing with and I don't stop swinging for shit... If there are multiple attackers, I run like hell). Still though no matter how big and bad someone thinks they are, there's someone out there somewhere bigger and badder.

Plus (and I'm not saying looks have no part in it, but they are way overblown and made into more than it should be, TV and advertisements and everything else is constantly pushing these images in our faces of what a man or a woman is supposed to look like), I prefer to take people on their character, and not their appearance. I'd quickly take a woman who is a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1-10 in physical attractiveness over a 9 or 10 with a really spoiled, shitty, psychotic attitude. I don't see looks being that imparative beyond 10%.... I'm not even a bad looking guy, facially I am very attractive. But even average in today's society (especially for men) is the new ugly. It isn't so easy to just up and build muscle, especially when you come from a line of small men and you have an extremely high metabolism, and your 32 yrs old.

But a woman can be 300 lbs and showers once a month, lives at home with her parents and does nothing, yet, she still has all the pick. And while I don't blame women for that because it isn't their fault, I do blame them to some extent when they take advantage of this though. If women had to court men 50/50 they wouldn't have such high expectations. This is a major part of why women are generally pickier than men, because they can afford to be. It's a power high. Maybe some part of that is biological and I'm not denying that, this is where the matriarchal element in human social structures comes from, men fighting other men (and in more primitive societies even dying) for the "priveledge" of sleeping with a woman (this makes women into property and men into lower than property), and the patriarchal element is more in the physical construction of society. Fact of the matter is, if we go forward with this system it will end in androgyny, if we go backward back to hunting and gathering, you have a society where hierarchy was an evolutionary survival tactic (because nature is the most brutal tyrant of all), which LEAD to "civilization." And will lead to it again. Biology isn't etched in stone either, so it fails to be the universal cop out people wanna use it for. If we didn't have the ability to challenge our nature, women wouldn't be holding jobs. Ultimately, we need to destroy hierarchy and redefine what makes men into men and women into women, and not towards an androgynous agenda either... We need to get off the linear path of forward and backward, and cut into the forrest somewhere. Currently, so-called men will throw other men under the bus and cut down on and betray their own gender for the "priveledge" of being a good pussy slave (please excuse my French, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just making a point). If I could share links here, I could drop you a link that will show you this. Today's so-called men are totally whipped, and will judge manhood on how whipped another man is.... And honestly, I'm not being one sided either, I don't hate women....

To sit here and say our fault and we're doing this to ourselves, is like blaiming a child who has been molested for their own molestation. I don't necessarily say all of "accepted" society knows they are doing this, some are just conditioned where they don't see it, but lots of them do know it, at the backs of their minds, rather or not they will admit to it (they do have ways of telling on themselves without even realizing it). They actually do make a sub or semi-conscious effort at this. So-called men and women... It's not really such a black and white thing though.

But see now you've got me talking about 2 seperate issues here, that do connect, but hell as I said TFL is just a small part of it, the fall-out of the eugenics system. My aim isn't to talk about my personal problems (besides, I don't want a mate anymore anyhow), I'm actually trying to point out something much bigger.

Frankly, I'm at a loss--the problem seems almost insurmountable. I sure hope you DO find a way to break
the cycle. Please post if you find a way to improve this disturbing situation, as will I if I think of anything that would be helpful.

For now, hang in there..

I haven't read thru the entire thread yet, but skimmed it. Sorry, I'll get back to it a little later when I have some more time. But if I understand the jist of it correctly, then I highly recommend the following book by Jacques Ellul:

The Presence of the Kingdom
http://www.amazon.com/Presence-Kingdom-Jacques-Ellul/dp/0939443147/

Look, I've never been a religious-type, but Ellul addresses God in a totally difference light, one that I found very practical and appealing. Bottom line, he showed me how to live my life in the Kingdom while existing in man's fucked-up world. I might imagine that this concept might be a turn-off at first, but all I can say is give it a chance. I think I may have created a thread here on this book, so there might be some clips posted.

But yeah, living-in and understanding the Kingdom has helped me tremendously. I can now distance (somewhat) from the psychopathy of man's society.