A World without Time: Goedel

“What causes the illusion of the passage of time?” ....

Goedel: The illusion of the passage of time arises from the confusing of the given with the real. Passage of time arises because we think of occupying different realities. In fact, we occupy only different givens. There is only one reality. [170–1]

Gödel seemed to believe that not only is the future already there, but worse, that it is, in principle, possible to predict completely the actions of some given person. I objected that if there were a completely accurate theory predicting my actions, then I could prove the theory false—by learning the theory and then doing the opposite of what it predicted. According to my notes, Gödel’s response went as follows:

It should be possible to form a complete theory of human behavior, i.e., to predict from the hereditary and environmental givens what a person will do. However, if a mischievous person learns of this theory, he can act in a way so as to negate it. Hence I conclude that such a theory exists, but that no mischievous person will learn of it. In the same way, time travel is possible, but no person will ever manage to kill his past self.

Gödel laughed his laugh then, and concluded,

The a priori is greatly neglected. Logic is very powerful.

Apropos of the free will question, on another occasion he said:

There is no contradiction between free will and knowing in advance precisely what one will do. If one knows oneself completely then this is the situation. One does not deliberately do the opposite of what one wants. [168]


http://kevincarmody.com/math/goedel.html

Yay! for the return of Goedel!!

So, all moments in all futures and all pasts exist within a Space-Time reality that we just travel through. Wow!

C1 wrote:

So, all moments in all futures and all pasts exist within a Space-Time reality that we just travel through. Wow!

OMG!!
TRYING to get my mind around THIS idea.......Wow!

C1 wrote:

“What causes the illusion of the passage of time?” ....

Goedel: The illusion of the passage of time arises from the confusing of the given with the real. Passage of time arises because we think of occupying different realities. In fact, we occupy only different givens. There is only one reality. [170–1]

This is really ineresting - I am definitely going to try and find more of G's thoughts on this idea--specifically what he means by "given", as contrasted with "the real."

Something about Goedel that i really like: his adventurous spirit, I think. !

Well, Goedel's point to Einstein was "how else would relativity exist"? ... and Einstein ultimately agreed. So, either relativity exists AND we time is part of Space-Time, OR relativity does NOT exist. Can't be both ways.

Hmmm. E=MC(squared) ....
This is going to the top of my to Think About list

Have no idea whether I can get anywhere at all, but I AM going to try!!!

Well, if relativity is accurate, and we can somehow go back in time, then Goedel reasoned that time and space must be linked, and that going back means going to a specific point in the space-time dimension. He saw no other way for realitivity to work. Otherwise, Realitivity isn't possible. So, if you buy into Einstein's theory of Realitvity, the you also buy into a Space-Time dimension.

Personally, I'm not so sure abour Relativity.

Goedel also reasoned that if time and space are linked, and relativity is true, then the time-space dimension must ultimately wrap-upon itself, for how would there be some starting point... or an end point, for that matter. Hence, Goedel reasoned that time-space repeats, and if one were to move far enough in one direction across the time-space dimension, say forward, they could actually end-up in the past.

Quote :

In mathematical physics, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline in a Lorentzian manifold, of a material particle in spacetime that is "closed," returning to its starting point. This possibility was first raised by Kurt Gödel in 1949, who discovered a solution to the equations of general relativity (GR) allowing CTCs known as the Gödel metric; and since then other GR solutions containing CTCs have been found, such as the Tipler cylinder and traversable wormholes. If CTCs exist, their existence would seem to imply at least the theoretical possibility of time travel backwards in time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

C1 wrote:

Goedel also reasoned that if time and space are linked, and relativity is true, then the time-space dimension must ultimately wrap-upon itself, for how would there be some starting point... or an end point, for that matter. Hence, Goedel reasoned that time-space repeats, and if one were to move far enough in one direction across the time-space dimension, say forward, they could actually end-up in the past.

Quote :

In mathematical physics, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline in a Lorentzian manifold, of a material particle in spacetime that is "closed," returning to its starting point. This possibility was first raised by Kurt Gödel in 1949, who discovered a solution to the equations of general relativity (GR) allowing CTCs known as the Gödel metric; and since then other GR solutions containing CTCs have been found, such as the Tipler cylinder and traversable wormholes. If CTCs exist, their existence would seem to imply at least the theoretical possibility of time travel backwards in time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

I thought about this a little recently, and tentatively concluded that I don't think it's possible to go back in Time..
But, need a definition for Time, for sure.

Also, I need to see whether I understand- E=MC2....

I'm afraid my posts might just be full of question-marks, thusly: ???! ?? ... Sheesh! (GRIN)

Still, I would LOVE to explore this subject further -- but wish we had some other at least somewhat informed poster/participants, as I am such a complete uninformed beginner!

Ttyl

P.S. I WILL NO LONGER LISTEN TO THE LOCAL MORONIC NEWS.....@#$%@%!!

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

Goedel also reasoned that if time and space are linked, and relativity is true, then the time-space dimension must ultimately wrap-upon itself, for how would there be some starting point... or an end point, for that matter. Hence, Goedel reasoned that time-space repeats, and if one were to move far enough in one direction across the time-space dimension, say forward, they could actually end-up in the past.

Quote :

In mathematical physics, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline in a Lorentzian manifold, of a material particle in spacetime that is "closed," returning to its starting point. This possibility was first raised by Kurt Gödel in 1949, who discovered a solution to the equations of general relativity (GR) allowing CTCs known as the Gödel metric; and since then other GR solutions containing CTCs have been found, such as the Tipler cylinder and traversable wormholes. If CTCs exist, their existence would seem to imply at least the theoretical possibility of time travel backwards in time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

I thought about this a little recently, and tentatively concluded that I don't think it's possible to go back in Time..
But, need a definition for Time, for sure.

Also, I need to see whether I understand- E=MC2....

I'm afraid my posts might just be full of question-marks, thusly: ???! ?? ... Sheesh! (GRIN)

Still, I would LOVE to explore this subject further -- but wish we had some other at least somewhat informed poster/participants, as I am such a complete uninformed beginner!

Ttyl

P.S. I WILL NO LONGER LISTEN TO THE LOCAL MORONIC NEWS.....@#$%@%!!

Well, if Relativity is accurate, then Goedel's deduction is quite sound. But I don't buy into Einstein's theory, and I've never trusted Einstein's motives, especially after I saw that he was not only a Manhattan Project scientist, but ALSO contributed to the ONE WORLD OR NONE publication published shortly after the dropping of the bomb. A little duplicitious, wouldn't you say?

C1 wrote:

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

Goedel also reasoned that if time and space are linked, and relativity is true, then the time-space dimension must ultimately wrap-upon itself, for how would there be some starting point... or an end point, for that matter. Hence, Goedel reasoned that time-space repeats, and if one were to move far enough in one direction across the time-space dimension, say forward, they could actually end-up in the past.

Quote :

In mathematical physics, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline in a Lorentzian manifold, of a material particle in spacetime that is "closed," returning to its starting point. This possibility was first raised by Kurt Gödel in 1949, who discovered a solution to the equations of general relativity (GR) allowing CTCs known as the Gödel metric; and since then other GR solutions containing CTCs have been found, such as the Tipler cylinder and traversable wormholes. If CTCs exist, their existence would seem to imply at least the theoretical possibility of time travel backwards in time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve

I thought about this a little recently, and tentatively concluded that I don't think it's possible to go back in Time..
But, need a definition for Time, for sure.

Also, I need to see whether I understand- E=MC2....

I'm afraid my posts might just be full of question-marks, thusly: ???! ?? ... Sheesh! (GRIN)

Still, I would LOVE to explore this subject further -- but wish we had some other at least somewhat informed poster/participants, as I am such a complete uninformed beginner!

Ttyl

P.S. I WILL NO LONGER LISTEN TO THE LOCAL MORONIC NEWS.....@#$%@%!!

Well, if Relativity is accurate, then Goedel's deduction is quite sound. But I don't buy into Einstein's theory, and I've never trusted Einstein's motives, especially after I saw that he was not only a Manhattan Project scientist, but ALSO contributed to the ONE WORLD OR NONE publication published shortly after the dropping of the bomb. A little duplicitious, wouldn't you say?

My foray into physics is delayed I'm afraid due to me getting what seems to be the *Flu.*...SIGH.
I took a look at the Set theory material and was just not up to it---

But what I did notice, (while surfing), is that Paul LaViolette seems to have 'debunked' Einstein's theory very vigorously! So now I
may have to examine HIS theory instead of Einstein's ....We have a video of LaViolette's in our forum, he's a **very interesting** guy.

All will have to wait for me to have a clearer mind though; i.e. after I recover.

Sorry.....

Gödel Theorem on Time

Amrit S. Sorli
sorli.bistra@gmail.com,
Scientific Research Centre BISTRA, Ptuj, Slovenia


Abstract
In 1949, Gödel postulated a theorem that stated: "In any universe described by the theory of relativity, time cannot exist". Gödel idea was that forth coordinate of space-time is not time. Fourth coordinate is spatial too. In this article will be shown that on the base of elementary perception and experimental data Gödel theorem is right. With eyes one observes universe is in a continuous change. A change n gets transformed into a change n+1, the change n+1 into a change n+2 and so on. Clocks measure a frequency, velocity and numerical order of change. Experimental date confirms that changes and clocks do not run time; they run in space only. Time is not a part of space. Fourth coordinate of space-time is spatial too. Space itself is timeless. Physical time that is clocks run is man created physical reality. Fundamental arena of the universe is timeless space. In the timeless space into which massive bodies and elementary particles move there is no past and no future. Past and future belong to the inner neuronal space-time that is a result of neuronal activity of the brain.

"A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Gödel and Einstein"
Yourgrau, Palle
Publisher New York : Basic Books, c2005

Quote :

An account of the spacey philosophical/mathematical territory charted by 20th-century European Über-minds, from the perspective of Austrian-born Kurt GÖdel, supported by Albert Einstein. Yourgrau (Philosophy/Brandeis) devotes the bulk of his text to the birth and academic life of "the GÖdel Universe" (the forgotten legacy to which the subtitle refers), a radical cosmological view made plausible by Einstein's theories. In the magical, rotating GÖdel Universe, time is merely another sort of space, and therefore an actual rocket ship could, if it goes fast enough, travel back in time. It's an unpopular theory, and the author gives ample attention to its detractors while remaining an unabashed cheerleader for GÖdel. (Stephen Hawking is one of the more prominent members of the opposition, which Yourgrau blithely attributes to the theory's shocking implications.) When he writes of real space and real time, the author does a superb job of portraying the thinkers from a human perspective, describing GÖdel as "gaunt, harrowed, and haunted, peering through thick glasses like an owl from another dimension." He depicts Kurt and Albert as complementary entities, despite their contradictory characters. Both German speakers made multiple visits to sanitoria over their lifetimes, but GÖdel was a theist, baptized Lutheran, whereas Einstein was a culturally Jewish, "deeply religious unbeliever." Einstein was a fan of Beethoven and Mozart, GÖdel of Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Unlike James Gleick's Chaos (1987) or Simon Singh's Fermat's Enigma (1997), which both effectively make high-level intellectual concepts understandable to the average reader, Yourgrau's narrative displays less concern for pandering to nonacademic stragglers. At times it reads like the account of a scholarly hockey game; after an idea has passed from Leibniz to Wittgenstein to Goldfarb to Frege to Husserl to Capek and back, it's easy to lose track of the goal. And that's not the only reason many readers, even science buffs, will be left in the space dust. Intellectually provocative, of more interest to scholars than the general public, but accessible to the motivated sub-genius. Copyright ©Kirkus Reviews, used with permission.

Quote :

We perceive changes that occur in the universe through our eyes. Then the information about the changes is processed by the brain into the inner time, and finally becomes our experience. Between the perception and the experience there is processing through the inner time that creates a distortion of perception. However, once we become aware of the inner time, called "intuitive time" by Gödel, we can experience changes directly as they occur.

Quote :

Gödel is supported by experimental data which conforms that physical time which is run of clocks ("tick" of clocks) is not a part of space in which change occurs. With clocks we do not measure time as a fourth dimension of space. With clocks we measure frequency, velocity and numerical order of change that run in space.

The fundamental arena of the universe in which changes occur is 4 dimensional timeless space.

Prevalent opinion in physics is that stream of change run in time as a physical reality although there is no experimental data for such interpretation. As we experience changes through linear concept of inner time Gödel called "intuitive time" we are not aware that changes run in the timeless space only and not in time.

Amazon review

At first blush, taking much that has been presented to me, pretty much "on faith," since I have yet to brave a thorough study of what, exactly, Godel has to say about time, I would conclude, at least provisionally, that what Godel had to say about the nature of time, is likely to be, both profoundly important, and probably also profoundly misunderstood by most modern academic philosophers, who remain steeped, as far as I can tell, in antiquated "now succession" notions of time, and in a positivistic spirit of philosophical inquiry that yet hangs on, even now, in the opening years of a third millennium of philosophical discourse.

Like Yourgrau says, Godel essentially proved that in a possible universe, where time travel is possible, time itself would be impossible. Since this possible universe Godel discusses must be held, to be governed by the same natural laws that govern our actual universe, I am wiling to buy in, for the time being, to the provisional conclusion that, since this is so, by a modal argument, time, probably also does not exist in our universe. In other words, our intuitive notion of time is an illusion.

What disappointed me the most, was not seeing Yourgrau take it from there, with a thorough discussion of Heidegger's ideas on time. Clearly, there is some phenomenon, whether real or ideal, which we point to, by the name of "time." I feel that Godel understood this. Godel understood that there was, indeed, an objective phenomenon, even if completely ideal, to which our word is pointing. To say that time, itself, is impossible, is only to say, that time, itself, as we have traditionally and habitually conceived it to be, is impossible.

Heidegger, I believe, began to address this, early on, with his discussion of primordial time and ekstatic temporality, in "Being and Time," and further deepened, and extended his ideas, and even reversed some of them, with his discussion of appropriation, and its relation to the Time-Being link, in much later essays such as his "Time and Being."

I am not prepared to dismiss time altogether, as Yourgrau would seem to suggest Godel was, and his presentation, although it avoids the mistake of imputing a belief in time travel, to Godel, does not do enough, I think, to dispell the also mistaken assumption that Godel actually believed that he had rendered the question of time, into a non-question. Clearly, he hadn't, or, why would Godel himself have been quoted as saying, even at the latest stages of his life, during his associations with Hao Wang, that time, itself, remains, THE central philosophical question of our time?

More from Yourgrau's book....

Quote :

Godel: "In any universe described by the theory of relativity, time cannot exist"


The problem with time is indeed the heart of Yourgrau's book, both for his evaluation of Kant and of Gödel. Yourgrau argues rightly that the Gödel Universes, where it is possible to travel into the future and arrive in the past, mean that time, as ordinarily understood, doesn't exist.

Gödel would conclude that the space-time structure in such a world was clearly a space, not a time, and therefore that t, the temporal component of space-time, was in fact another spatial dimension -- not time as

Quote :

we understand it in ordinary experience. [p.115]

Yourgrau says,

We can have a world in which there is time or a world in which there is existence, but not both. Gödel made the only rational choice: a world without time. [p.132]

Quote :

By 1949, Gödel had produced a remarkable proof: In any universe described by the Theory of Relativity, time cannot exist. Einstein endorsed this result-reluctantly, since it decisively overthrew the classical world-view to which he was committed. But he could find no way to refute it, and in the half-century since then, neither has anyone else.

Quote :

The key insight of the book, which Hargrave seems completely unaware of (has he actually read it ?), is that Goedel's writings on Einstein form part of the same philosophical program as his legendary incompleteness theorem -- a philosophical program that Yourgrau calls (by analogy with Hilbert's program in the foundations of mathematics), "Goedel's program" -- which he describes (to use his words) as the attempt to find the limits of formal methods in capturing intuitive concepts (in the one case, intuitive time, in the other, intuitive mathematical truth).

Lots of good information here C1, thanks.

I'm still recuperating but doing a lot of diverse reading (old material I had on hand relating to the cosmos, God, etc.) So far it's just a "collecting more information" process, part of trying to come to grips with what is one Heck of a difficult subject.

Ah well - Rome wasn'[t built in a day right?

C1 wrote:

"A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Gödel and Einstein"
Yourgrau, Palle
Publisher New York : Basic Books, c2005

Quote :

An account of the spacey philosophical/mathematical territory charted by 20th-century European Über-minds, from the perspective of Austrian-born Kurt GÖdel, supported by Albert Einstein. Yourgrau (Philosophy/Brandeis) devotes the bulk of his text to the birth and academic life of "the GÖdel Universe" (the forgotten legacy to which the subtitle refers), a radical cosmological view made plausible by Einstein's theories. In the magical, rotating GÖdel Universe, time is merely another sort of space, and therefore an actual rocket ship could, if it goes fast enough, travel back in time. It's an unpopular theory, and the author gives ample attention to its detractors while remaining an unabashed cheerleader for GÖdel. (Stephen Hawking is one of the more prominent members of the opposition, which Yourgrau blithely attributes to the theory's shocking implications.) When he writes of real space and real time, the author does a superb job of portraying the thinkers from a human perspective, describing GÖdel as "gaunt, harrowed, and haunted, peering through thick glasses like an owl from another dimension." He depicts Kurt and Albert as complementary entities, despite their contradictory characters. Both German speakers made multiple visits to sanitoria over their lifetimes, but GÖdel was a theist, baptized Lutheran, whereas Einstein was a culturally Jewish, "deeply religious unbeliever." Einstein was a fan of Beethoven and Mozart, GÖdel of Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Unlike James Gleick's Chaos (1987) or Simon Singh's Fermat's Enigma (1997), which both effectively make high-level intellectual concepts understandable to the average reader, Yourgrau's narrative displays less concern for pandering to nonacademic stragglers. At times it reads like the account of a scholarly hockey game; after an idea has passed from Leibniz to Wittgenstein to Goldfarb to Frege to Husserl to Capek and back, it's easy to lose track of the goal. And that's not the only reason many readers, even science buffs, will be left in the space dust. Intellectually provocative, of more interest to scholars than the general public, but accessible to the motivated sub-genius. Copyright Kirkus Reviews, used with permission.

Quote :

We perceive changes that occur in the universe through our eyes. Then the information about the changes is processed by the brain into the inner time, and finally becomes our experience. Between the perception and the experience there is processing through the inner time that creates a distortion of perception. However, once we become aware of the inner time, called "intuitive time" by Gödel, we can experience changes directly as they occur.

Quote :

Gödel is supported by experimental data which conforms that physical time which is run of clocks ("tick" of clocks) is not a part of space in which change occurs. With clocks we do not measure time as a fourth dimension of space. With clocks we measure frequency, velocity and numerical order of change that run in space.

The fundamental arena of the universe in which changes occur is 4 dimensional timeless space.

Prevalent opinion in physics is that stream of change run in time as a physical reality although there is no experimental data for such interpretation. As we experience changes through linear concept of inner time Gödel called "intuitive time" we are not aware that changes run in the timeless space only and not in time.

Amazon review

At first blush, taking much that has been presented to me, pretty much "on faith," since I have yet to brave a thorough study of what, exactly, Godel has to say about time, I would conclude, at least provisionally, that what Godel had to say about the nature of time, is likely to be, both profoundly important, and probably also profoundly misunderstood by most modern academic philosophers, who remain steeped, as far as I can tell, in antiquated "now succession" notions of time, and in a positivistic spirit of philosophical inquiry that yet hangs on, even now, in the opening years of a third millennium of philosophical discourse.

Like Yourgrau says, Godel essentially proved that in a possible universe, where time travel is possible, time itself would be impossible. Since this possible universe Godel discusses must be held, to be governed by the same natural laws that govern our actual universe, I am wiling to buy in, for the time being, to the provisional conclusion that, since this is so, by a modal argument, time, probably also does not exist in our universe. In other words, our intuitive notion of time is an illusion.

What disappointed me the most, was not seeing Yourgrau take it from there, with a thorough discussion of Heidegger's ideas on time. Clearly, there is some phenomenon, whether real or ideal, which we point to, by the name of "time." I feel that Godel understood this. Godel understood that there was, indeed, an objective phenomenon, even if completely ideal, to which our word is pointing. To say that time, itself, is impossible, is only to say, that time, itself, as we have traditionally and habitually conceived it to be, is impossible.

Heidegger, I believe, began to address this, early on, with his discussion of primordial time and ekstatic temporality, in "Being and Time," and further deepened, and extended his ideas, and even reversed some of them, with his discussion of appropriation, and its relation to the Time-Being link, in much later essays such as his "Time and Being."

I am not prepared to dismiss time altogether, as Yourgrau would seem to suggest Godel was, and his presentation, although it avoids the mistake of imputing a belief in time travel, to Godel, does not do enough, I think, to dispell the also mistaken assumption that Godel actually believed that he had rendered the question of time, into a non-question. Clearly, he hadn't, or, why would Godel himself have been quoted as saying, even at the latest stages of his life, during his associations with Hao Wang, that time, itself, remains, THE central philosophical question of our time?

I am at a loss to understand this, alas. But I do not buy the notion that time is an illusion (time PASSES, I think, don't you think...?)...What about aging, for instance? Wouldn't you say that is a real identifiable phenomena, and a *variable and changing* one...

Furthermore, we can't ignore the need to define "space", IMHO! This is equally as elusive a concept as time, is it not? Would you define space as "reality", perhaps?......

What do *you* think, C1? Do you think time exists?

P.S. I do not see Where Goedel has proven his thesis, as the Amazon reviewer concedes - I think the Reviewer just got tired of trying to understand the entire issue. Nor do I understand why if time travel is possible, (paraphrasing) 'there can't be any such thing as time.' If you understand this, could you explain this to me? thanks!

Well, I think Godel is right, if the Theory of Relativity is accurate, then time does not really exist, but simply how we humans perceive our path across SpaceTime, which is a spatial dimension. If this is the case, then time is merely a human perception which is internal to us.

All of this resides on Relativity. But yeah, given that this concept is NOT presented to discussed in any circles of relevance, then I'd deduce that it is a suppressed topic, and probably what is believed in elite circles.

Again, if Godel is correct, then the future is pre-ordained, and that would mean that we're talking about the existence a higher power (ie God).

PS. Time travel is possible because one would just be traveling to a different coordinate in SpaceTime, like you or I taking a flight to NYC.