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 Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)

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PostSubject: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Sun 20 May 2012, 3:10 pm

The Elite will always fail in their attempts to control humanity and our world. How do we know, because Godel proved it to be impossible. Man can NOT become gods.

I believe the following book (available for online download) does an excellent job revealing this fact, unfortunately, the key knowledge is wrapped-up on a lengthly philosophical mystery novel, where only select chapter delve into the meat, substance and implications of Godel's work. In this OP, I'll direct you to the book, but will later follow-up with an annotated (and highlighted) version that allows one to focus on the substance (saving the reader much time). If you want to, however, start digging-in now, then I suggest beginning with chapter 78 and 79.

Download page
http://www.jeffreykegler.com/Home/god-proof



"The God Proof is a novel, but it is about a real proof claimed by Kurt Gödel, Einstein's closest friend. Many people have tried to prove God's existence. You can certainly doubt that it's possible. What you can't question is that if anyone could do it, Gödel could. Time magazine called Gödel the greatest mathematician of the last century. Oppenheimer, scientific director of the project that built the atomic bomb, called Gödel "the greatest logician since Aristotle." Gödel earned his reputation with airtight proofs of unexpected results.

The shy Gödel feared ridicule. He probably told Einstein about his God Proof, but he told nobody else until 1970, and he never went public. After Gödel's death, his papers were found in careful order. We know what is missing and what is not. Everything was there, with two exceptions: the notebooks with his work on the God Proof."


FYI, from an Amazon reviewer...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1434807355/ref=sib_dp_pt/176-6396576-0512727

The book attempts to intertwine a rigorous historical and intellectual investigation of 20th century most celebrated mathematical work with spiritual journey and legal case. This connection is accomplished mostly at the intellectual level, suggesting the author's point of view on deep philosophical relationship between personal, social and metaphysical realms of existence. However, in my view the book lacks a psychological depth required to make a convincing literary and historical connection between the main characters and their lives. I have enjoyed the philosophical discussion of Goedel's work much more than other threads superimposed over it somewhat artificially. At the same time I must thank the author for being bold in his effort to bring the important and difficult subject to a broad audience.


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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Sun 20 May 2012, 3:46 pm

"It’s not that God is subject to the Freedom Proof or the Doubt Proof.
According to Gödel, He’s not. But we have to be, or else we are not free.
So
our truth game with God turns into something like Feynman had described.
Feynman’s Gods, every time physicists think they have the rules of the game
figured out, throw in a new wrinkle. They let people like Feynman make
progress, but if the Feynmans of the world learn too much, physics will stop
being the joy and challenge that it is. The Gods don’t let that happen.

Gödel’s God has to be very careful about how he lets our universe unfold.
If the world becomes totally controllable and comprehensible, we’ll be God.
God does not object to that. In fact, according to Gödel, that is our destiny.
But it is also the end of us as free human beings. And human freedom is an
essential part of the beauty of God’s universe.
"

~ page 251

The Elite's systems of control will never ever succeed, and they know this.... we live in a self-policing system!

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Mon 21 May 2012, 11:21 pm

Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Tue 22 May 2012, 3:16 am

C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.

Reality (that which is put together by thought), and truth, are eternally divorced. You might like the following, as an adjunct to this: http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/truth-and-actuality/1975-09-06-jiddu-krishnamurti-truth-and-actuality-right-action
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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Tue 22 May 2012, 3:20 pm

C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.

Thanks for the welcome advice, as I've gotten slightly 'tangled up' in the book's storyline. and am now somewhat confused. Sad But the topic couldn't be more exciting, and I am greatly looking forward to reading your the annotated version. So, waiting patiently - till the weekend. Smile






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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Wed 23 May 2012, 5:18 pm

Ben Steigmann wrote:
C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.
Reality (that which is put together by thought), and truth, are eternally divorced. You might like the following, as an adjunct to this: http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/truth-and-actuality/1975-09-06-jiddu-krishnamurti-truth-and-actuality-right-action
This material you reference is in alignment with elitist goals (excerpt below). But anyway, ithis material is not necessary to understand Godel's proofs. But if you want to start another thread on this, I'll discuss there.
Quote :
So what is one to do in this disintegrating, corrupt, immoral world, as a human being - not an individual, because there is no such thing as the individual - we are human beings, we are collective, not individual, we are the result of various collective influences, forces, conditioning and so on


ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.

Thanks for the welcome advice, as I've gotten slightly 'tangled up' in the book's storyline. and am now somewhat confused. Sad But the topic couldn't be more exciting, and I am greatly looking forward to reading your the annotated version. So, waiting patiently - till the weekend. Smile

Bottom line, take all the confusing BS out of the discussion, and the result is that no one can know everything about a system, and therefore control that system. To do so would mean that one is a god, but Godel proved that's not possible. Hence, no one can know everything, control everything, and therefore play god.

Hence, the elite can not achieve their goals. It's a proven impossibility. Therefore, Man will always be free from theefforts of control of other Men.

It's not necessary to listen to the endless array of gurus on the Internet spouting all types of theories. The great mathemeticians, scientists & logiticians tells us everything, it just takes a lot of time and effort to figure it out.

Mike introduced this forum to Kurt Voeglin, and he is a fantastic place to start. Understand Voegelin and you understand our world. I just happen to like Goedel's scientific simplicity and impact.

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Wed 30 May 2012, 9:10 pm

I've uploaded the annotated version of the document to scribd, at the following link...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95364925/Goedel-s-God-Proof-Annotated-Version

I had to read thru the entire book again in order to annotate it. Ugh.

The annotated version includes highlights sections, highlighted & underlined passages (most important), and notes in the margins where I wanted to make a connection or additoinal point.

I'm hoping that by focusing on these annotations others will be able to more easily understand what is a challenging novel, especially when ones goal is to understand the implications of Goedel's work. It's beyond odd that one would take a discussion of this important work by Goedel, and intertwine it in a complex storyline mixing fictional accounts and characters with Goedel's actual work.

Perhaps focusing on these annotations along with some discussion of key excerpts here, in the forum, will ceate an overview that can reach a wider audience.

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Fri 01 Jun 2012, 10:50 pm

C1 wrote:
I've uploaded the annotated version of the document to scribd, at the following link...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95364925/Goedel-s-God-Proof-Annotated-Version

I had to read thru the entire book again in order to annotate it. Ugh.

The annotated version includes highlights sections, highlighted & underlined passages (most important), and notes in the margins where I wanted to make a connection or additoinal point.

I'm hoping that by focusing on these annotations others will be able to more easily understand what is a challenging novel, especially when ones goal is to understand the implications of Goedel's work. It's beyond odd that one would take a discussion of this important work by Goedel, and intertwine it in a complex storyline mixing fictional accounts and characters with Goedel's actual work.

Perhaps focusing on these annotations along with some discussion of key excerpts here, in the forum, will ceate an overview that can reach a wider audience.

I am presently reading this Annotated version from Scribd - finding it to be an interesting tale. I am anxious to get to the Godel proofs though, so may skip ahead. I'll surely comment when I find out just what the Godel proof material is all about....Till then. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Tue 05 Jun 2012, 12:27 am

ScoutsHonor wrote:
I am presently reading this Annotated version from Scribd - finding it to be an interesting tale. I am anxious to get to the Godel proofs though, so may skip ahead. I'll surely comment when I find out just what the Godel proof material is all about....Till then. Smile
I'm not sure I'm going to meet my goals in this thread, as I'm just not sure that the book, even with the highlighting and annotations, clearly communicates the conclusion that the elite desire for total system control is unattainable. We may need further discussion within this thread, quoting excerpts from the book. Damn, but I'm not sure that that is going to work either. The book just buries the most relevent points so deep in the convoluted novel, that it makes the process very challenging. Looking back, I wonder if that was deliberate.

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Tue 05 Jun 2012, 7:58 pm

C1 wrote:
ScoutsHonor wrote:
I am presently reading this Annotated version from Scribd - finding it to be an interesting tale. I am anxious to get to the Godel proofs though, so may skip ahead. I'll surely comment when I find out just what the Godel proof material is all about....Till then. Smile
I'm not sure I'm going to meet my goals in this thread, as I'm just not sure that the book, even with the highlighting and annotations, clearly communicates the conclusion that the elite desire for total system control is unattainable. We may need further discussion within this thread, quoting excerpts from the book. Damn, but I'm not sure that that is going to work either. The book just buries the most relevent points so deep in the convoluted novel, that it makes the process very challenging. Looking back, I wonder if that was deliberate.

Perhaps we should just abandon the book?

I think maybe Yes..although it is interesting in its own strange, very convoluted way....!
Your choice, C1.

pirat Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Tue 05 Jun 2012, 9:04 pm

ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
ScoutsHonor wrote:
I am presently reading this Annotated version from Scribd - finding it to be an interesting tale. I am anxious to get to the Godel proofs though, so may skip ahead. I'll surely comment when I find out just what the Godel proof material is all about....Till then. Smile
I'm not sure I'm going to meet my goals in this thread, as I'm just not sure that the book, even with the highlighting and annotations, clearly communicates the conclusion that the elite desire for total system control is unattainable. We may need further discussion within this thread, quoting excerpts from the book. Damn, but I'm not sure that that is going to work either. The book just buries the most relevent points so deep in the convoluted novel, that it makes the process very challenging. Looking back, I wonder if that was deliberate.

Perhaps we should just abandon the book?

I think maybe Yes..although it is interesting in its own strange, very convoluted way....!
Your choice, C1.

pirat Cool
No, the book is of tremendous value. But to realize the value, one is going to have to make an appropriate investment, an investment that I don't think people are used to making on forums.

Godel shows us the limits of man's power to control other men. I think there is great value in truly understanding how he does this, because it proves to us that we can remain free, no matter the cruelty or ugliness of the system's techniques against ust.

I just want people to know upfront that this is not going to be an easy task.

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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Wed 13 Jun 2012, 5:38 pm

C1 wrote:
Ben Steigmann wrote:
C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.
Reality (that which is put together by thought), and truth, are eternally divorced. You might like the following, as an adjunct to this: http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/truth-and-actuality/1975-09-06-jiddu-krishnamurti-truth-and-actuality-right-action
This material you reference is in alignment with elitist goals (excerpt below). But anyway, ithis material is not necessary to understand Godel's proofs. But if you want to start another thread on this, I'll discuss there.
Quote :
So what is one to do in this disintegrating, corrupt, immoral world, as a human being - not an individual, because there is no such thing as the individual - we are human beings, we are collective, not individual, we are the result of various collective influences, forces, conditioning and so on


ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
Just a note. Readers probably should wait for me to provide a copy of the highlighted version of the book, or risk getting drown in much material that's not relevant or confuses the matter more. I hope to post again by the end of the coming weekend with a link to that annotated version.

Thanks for the welcome advice, as I've gotten slightly 'tangled up' in the book's storyline. and am now somewhat confused. Sad But the topic couldn't be more exciting, and I am greatly looking forward to reading your the annotated version. So, waiting patiently - till the weekend. Smile

Bottom line, take all the confusing BS out of the discussion, and the result is that no one can know everything about a system, and therefore control that system. To do so would mean that one is a god, but Godel proved that's not possible. Hence, no one can know everything, control everything, and therefore play god.

Hence, the elite can not achieve their goals. It's a proven impossibility. Therefore, Man will always be free from theefforts of control of other Men.

It's not necessary to listen to the endless array of gurus on the Internet spouting all types of theories. The great mathemeticians, scientists & logiticians tells us everything, it just takes a lot of time and effort to figure it out.

Mike introduced this forum to Kurt Voeglin, and he is a fantastic place to start. Understand Voegelin and you understand our world. I just happen to like Goedel's scientific simplicity and impact.

He is actually attacking psychological conditioning, and attempting to incite a state aside from that conditioning. As on who has gone through this, perhaps the following log is of relevance: http://www.scribd.com/doc/91194346/Start-of-log-–-week-of-11-1-2011-11-8-2011
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PostSubject: Re: Godel's God Proof (ie Why the Elite always Fail!)   Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:58 pm

I relocated continuing discussion about Krishnamurti to the following thread...

http://wwws.forummotion.com/t904-krishnamurti

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