Godel & Cantor

C1 wrote:

Trying to live the life that Kurt Godel scientifically uncovered.

Where can I learn about this?

I see that Godel has a book on Amazon.com called "On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems"

Georg Cantor and Kurt Godel (pronounced 'girdle') blow our entire system of math and science out of the water. What a crock of bullshit it all is. Just systems of control for men over other men.

See the BBC documentary, but you'll have to read thru the double speak and between the lines to see how powerful the implications are.

Dangerous Knowledge.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/dangerous-knowledge.shtml

Cantor showed that for every set their is a larger set, upon infinitim (sp?). So, math, science, and all of man's systems are merely subsets of greater systems. And those systems are yet again subsets of bigger systems. This continues forever.

So, man's systems of control are a joke. We are lead to beleive that math & science describe our universe, that string theory is a universal system, and that man has conquered his surroundings. None of this can be true. We are subject to larger systems that we aren't aware of. This supports theories that point to higher powers, which diminishes man's power over other men.

Kurt Godel (1931) proved two important things about any axiomatic system rich enough to include all of number theory.

1) You'll never be able to prove every true result..... you'll never be able to prove every result that is true in your system.

2) Godel also proved that one of the results that you can never prove is the result that says that the system is consistent. More precisely: You cannot prove the consistency of any mathematical system rich enough to include the known theory of numbers.

Hence, any consistent mathematical system that is rich enough to include number theory is inherently incomplete.

Second, one of the propositions whose truth or falsity cannot be proved within the system is precisely the proposition that states that the system is consistent. "

What Godel's proof means, then, is that we can't prove that arithmetic—let alone any more-complicated system—is consistent.

For 2000 years, mathematics has been the model—the subject—that convinces us that certainty is possible. Yet Now there's no certainty anywhere—not even in mathematics.

http://teachingcompany.12.forumer.com/a/36-mathematics-and-the-modern-world_post2327.html

Is so nice to see that man has exposed this, and done it using the current systems. No wonder Godel and Cantol both died after being in and out of insane asylums, suffering from paranoia. I'd have been paranoid too had I been working on such an exposition.

In the documentary Das Netz, which I've spoken of before, Theodore Kaczynski mentioned, in his letters, something to the effect that Mathematics is false, or a dead end (it's stated clearly in the documentary, will have to watch again to get the exact quote). This brief comment always stuck with me, and troubled me. But now, after understanding Cantor's and Godel's work, I think I now have insight into what Kaz was saying. I can now see why he abandoned his career in math & physics, and turned to nature, for nature is just so much more interesting and does not incorporate the same type of deceipt and limitations.

On a side note, a guy (kaz) with this kind of understanding would have never attacked the system in the way that he was accused. My guess is that he abandoned man's deceitful system, and would have had nothing to do with it, for the system is a dead end and horribly uninteressting to someone of his intellect.

Anyway, it's kind of interesting to finally be able to put these small, but incredibly far-reaching puzzle pieces together.

Thanks for the insight C1. What an outstanding field of work, Godel challenged. Everyone assumes 2 + 2 = 4. Well it does in base 10 but not in other bases. So Base 10 is just a system designed to function within its set limits, mainly through logic but in no way shape or form does its logic hold true in base 5. I hope I dont confuse anyone. Only thing to say is that our common numbering scale and math logic in Base 10 is nothing more than a system. Maybe others can expand on this further or elaborate better than I.

Even simple arithmetic has limits. 1/0 is undefined.

Every man made system has inherent contractions... and every system is incongruent, where opposite and opposing truths can co-exist. But our current simulacrum tries to convince us that is all powerful and ignores all contradictions.

After one gets thru tearing apart all of man's fallacies, one sees that only nature is actually congruent, with it's findings of infinite infinities.

Can you imagine that, there are infinite infinities. Can you imagine how people would respond to man's rules, man's laws, man's supposed systems of "total" understanding if they understood that all of them have inherent contradictions, and then infact we live in a world with infinite infinities.

God, or belief in some higher power, become a much more plausible and tenable belief system when one realizes that our own scientific and mathematical systems have disproven themselves, and confirmed man's own frivious position within nature.

This guy kinda explains Godel.... haven't watched the entire video series, so can't comment on anything else he's saying. I don't think one has to automatically go to the "God" conclusion given Godel's proof, which is what this guy does, but one certainly can now see how nature is far greater than man has currently defined it.

Is your world view blown away yet? It should be.

All chains have now been removed

Hegel taught us to use dialectics as a tool for constructive and logical exploration, not as a form of deceitful oppression. Time to let the exploration begin, untethered by psychopathic men.

Have fun!

WOW!
Kind of takes my breath away...
I'm trying to grasp this but I must say I'm not surprised that all of those so-called Truisms and Verities are NOT truisms or verities. Abstractions are tricky things and not to be tossed about lightly without tying them to reality, something I've known for a long time. (Sure wish Ted K. was available for some conversation about this....!)

Anyway, am pondering this. For instance, does 2+2 still not equal 4??? Are the rules of logic considered to be null??

Looking forward to this discussion, for sure!!

ScoutsHonor wrote:

Anyway, am pondering this. For instance, does 2+2 still not equal 4??? Are the rules of logic considered to be null??

Looking forward to this discussion, for sure!!

The "systems" are limited, that's the point. Yes, 2 + 2 still equals 4, but our mathematical systems eventually break down due to inherent inconsistencies. So do our scientific systems.

Man is not as all-powerfull, or as smart as we are lead to believe. But to reveal this fact, to reveal that our systems are all incongruous, would demonstrate infallibility, utter weakness to nature, and some higher powers, whatever they are.

In order for man to dominate man, those men that are oppressed must think that the controlling men are all-powerful and invinceable and infallible. In short, man must beleive that we've conquered nature and that we must subscribe to the systems that we've established for ourselves.

But man is nothing to nature, and once that fact is known, how can any other man become subserviant to other men. Nature is our "God", that is what Godel showed. With that knowledge, my respect for all of man's systems is lost, and therefore there is no way for other men to dominate me.

This was the message in Jacques Elluls book on Living in the Kingdom, where we should honor nature's rules (he say's God) over and above man's "rules".

Fuck man's stupid systems. They are all built on deceipt.... ALL OF THEM!!!!

I'm going to reread Living in the Kingdom - I'm beginning to feel JE has some of the answers I'm looking for.

Yep, fuck em.

The takeaway from Cantor & Godel is that the only "consistent" and "congruous" system is the system of nature, which is comprised of infinite infinities, or infinite possibilties. Hence, man ain't in control of shit and is a slave to nature, there is no question about this, it has been proved.

Whether you wanna call the higher power of nature "God" or something else, it is really irrelevant, we are all subject to it and can not even accurately describe it. The founders of the American-experient were right in the Dec of Independence, all of our power is inalienable, and psychopathic men can't change that, no matter what flavor of deceit they perpetrate on the public.

I hope people are reading this, getting this, and distributing this, as this really breaks down all the other BS that's out there, and puts the so-called self-labelled elite in their rightful place.

You are born as a slave to nature but then you get traped in society and become a slave to other humanity. While nature can be brutal and merciless I think it would be better to be a slave to nature because at least nature does not show favoritism or self-indulgence with it's brutality. It's funny and/or sad that this all leads back to this truth, a rejection of civilization though not a rejection of community. How do you guys cope with this? It's something that should be life changing IMO. But is it? Maybe not as much as I would like.

Clairvoyant wrote:

You are born as a slave to nature but then you get traped in society and become a slave to other humanity. While nature can be brutal and merciless I think it would be better to be a slave to nature because at least nature does not show favoritism or self-indulgence with it's brutality. It's funny and/or sad that this all leads back to this truth, a rejection of civilization though not a rejection of community. How do you guys cope with this? It's something that should be life changing IMO. But is it? Maybe not as much as I would like.

Clairvoyant,

We are faced with the fact that a gang of marauding maniacs have SEIZED CONTROL of the earth, the ENTIRE planet. An astonishing mind-boggling truth - very hard to get one's head around, but true. They have managed to acquire a monopoly on physical force and therefore have the power to destroy anything they wish, which they are presently doing with reckless abandon. A horrific situation..

NATURE is not our problem, because nature does not seek to destroy mankind and nature follows a discernible, usually benevolent pattern, without any malice - as you pointed out. As a wise person said: "Nature to be commanded must be obeyed." Which means, men *can* act in accordance with nature's laws and by so doing, live and thrive. So it is OTHER MEN, retarded and beserk, who are determined to destroy this entire planet, who are causing our destruction.

If there is a higher power, now is when we need it to appear.
And If we ever could destroy the maniacs, then our job would be to ensure that NEVER ever again would men walk the earth in ignorance of the evil that is everpresent: the evil of men who lust after power. And this is doable IMO - but we need the chance to start again, and much more wisely.

Suggestions?

Clairvoyant wrote:

You are born as a slave to nature but then you get traped in society and become a slave to other humanity. While nature can be brutal and merciless I think it would be better to be a slave to nature because at least nature does not show favoritism or self-indulgence with it's brutality. It's funny and/or sad that this all leads back to this truth, a rejection of civilization though not a rejection of community. How do you guys cope with this? It's something that should be life changing IMO. But is it? Maybe not as much as I would like.

Ellul really tried to tackle this, granted, he did it in the context of the Kingdom of God, which one may or may not have a problem with. But in his Living in the Kingdom book, he provides an instruction manual for living in 2-worlds, where ones mind, thoughts, spirit, etc. are in the Kingdom of God while physically having to exist in mans' world. I think somewhere I posted about this book and perhaps posted some excerpts or quotes. I don't think one has to be a bible thumper, or a believer, in order to get the gist. I read this long before I discovered Godel's work, but Ellul's work continues to grown in relevance the more I understand. But it's tough, really tough to see what we see everday, and to distance oneself from it. It's a daily struggle.

ScoutsHonor wrote:

Clairvoyant wrote:

You are born as a slave to nature but then you get traped in society and become a slave to other humanity. While nature can be brutal and merciless I think it would be better to be a slave to nature because at least nature does not show favoritism or self-indulgence with it's brutality. It's funny and/or sad that this all leads back to this truth, a rejection of civilization though not a rejection of community. How do you guys cope with this? It's something that should be life changing IMO. But is it? Maybe not as much as I would like.

Clairvoyant,

We are faced with the fact that a gang of marauding maniacs have SEIZED CONTROL of the earth, the ENTIRE planet. An astonishing mind-boggling truth - very hard to get one's head around, but true. They have managed to acquire a monopoly on physical force and therefore have the power to destroy anything they wish, which they are presently doing with reckless abandon. A horrific situation..

NATURE is not our problem, because nature does not seek to destroy mankind and nature follows a discernible, usually benevolent pattern, without any malice - as you pointed out. As a wise person said: "Nature to be commanded must be obeyed." Which means, men *can* act in accordance with nature's laws and by so doing, live and thrive. So it is OTHER MEN, retarded and beserk, who are determined to destroy this entire planet, who are causing our destruction.

If there is a higher power, now is when we need it to appear.
And If we ever could destroy the maniacs, then our job would be to ensure that NEVER ever again would men walk the earth in ignorance of the evil that is everpresent: the evil of men who lust after power. And this is doable IMO - but we need the chance to start again, and much more wisely.

Suggestions?

1. I think they've seized control of our minds, and convinced us that they and their systems are all-powerful and indestructable. In general, we gotta break free from their hold on our perceptions of reality.

2. The nice thing about nature is that it provides us with infinite possibilties. Man, on the other hand, wants us to fit into a hierarchical bee hive structure, which is an absolute insult to the wonders of humanity.

3. I think any higher power is already within all of us, and it is up to us to discover it, uncover it, and employ it. I also think we're doing this right now, right here, in this forum and through our individual research and discovery.

WE ARE BREAKING FREE. I feel much better about myself and my position in the world, I hope others here do too.

Where's Blissentia on this one, as he/she should eat this stuff up.... Take that circle avatar that he/she uses and put 2 dots inside the circle. Both dots represent the same condition, the same reality. What Godel shows us is that one of these dots can be true while the other dot is false. Or, one could make the same case with just one dot, where all systems could show that the dot simultaneously represents a true condition AND a false condition. This is why all deliberately contrived systems are incomplete (see Godel's Incompleteness Theorem), for they can possess mulitple "truths".

C1 wrote:

Where's Blissentia on this one, as he/she should eat this stuff up.... Take that circle avatar that he/she uses and put 2 dots inside the circle. Both dots represent the same condition, the same reality. What Godel shows us is that one of these dots can be true while the other dot is false. Or, one could make the same case with just one dot, where all systems could show that the dot simultaneously represents a true condition AND a false condition. This is why all deliberately contrived systems are incomplete (see Godel's Incompleteness Theorem), for they can possess mulitple "truths".

So if I am understanding this correctly, the 'SYSTEM' is erroneously trying to tell us that Contradictions Can Exist?? Ahh, I think I get it now (IF I have (finally) understood this correctly...???)

Sure hope this is right!! If not, could you explain further?

Thanks.

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

Where's Blissentia on this one, as he/she should eat this stuff up.... Take that circle avatar that he/she uses and put 2 dots inside the circle. Both dots represent the same condition, the same reality. What Godel shows us is that one of these dots can be true while the other dot is false. Or, one could make the same case with just one dot, where all systems could show that the dot simultaneously represents a true condition AND a false condition. This is why all deliberately contrived systems are incomplete (see Godel's Incompleteness Theorem), for they can possess mulitple "truths".

So if I am understanding this correctly, the 'SYSTEM' is erroneously trying to tell us that Contradictions Can Exist?? Ahh, I think I get it now (IF I have (finally) understood this correctly...???)

Sure hope this is right!! If not, could you explain further?

Thanks.

1. Every system possesses contradication... this has been proven.
2. The guys running this system ignore No. 1 while trying to convince people that their system describes all (ie Nature) without contradiction.
3. If people were to realize that man's system [of tools] actually fail to describe Nature [and the universe], then those men that live by those toolsand this system lose their power over everyone else.

Am I getting this down so people get this.?

C1 wrote:

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

Where's Blissentia on this one, as he/she should eat this stuff up.... Take that circle avatar that he/she uses and put 2 dots inside the circle. Both dots represent the same condition, the same reality. What Godel shows us is that one of these dots can be true while the other dot is false. Or, one could make the same case with just one dot, where all systems could show that the dot simultaneously represents a true condition AND a false condition. This is why all deliberately contrived systems are incomplete (see Godel's Incompleteness Theorem), for they can possess mulitple "truths".

So if I am understanding this correctly, the 'SYSTEM' is erroneously trying to tell us that Contradictions Can Exist?? Ahh, I think I get it now (IF I have (finally) understood this correctly...???)

Sure hope this is right!! If not, could you explain further?

Thanks.

1. Every system possesses contradication... this has been proven.
2. The guys running this system ignore No. 1 while trying to convince people that their system describes all (ie Nature) without contradiction.
3. If people were to realize that man's system [of tools] actually fail to describe Nature [and the universe], then those men that live by those toolsand this system lose their power over everyone else.

Am I getting this down so people get this.?

Godel's proof is, honestly, too abstract in form and difficult to analyze, as it stands now, for me at least. Also of course, some systems, being very simple ("how I do my wash" for instance, or "how I keep track of my bills" (just as examples) are non-contradictory even though 'man-made.', right?

But with regard to trusting man's "important" systems, I am not in the least inclined to trust the so-called "experts"--and I think all of us who have understood the nature of what the Tavistock crowd have been perpetrating on us, have already realized that these SOBs are impotent, evil and Not to be followed or granted ANY power over us at all. Unfortunately, I think this lesson has been learned too late, and now I for one don't see a way out of the terrible nightmare that they've created, even though I do not grant them ANY power of any sort over me, nor see them as powerful in any way (except for the guns in their hands!).

I hope this is responsive to what you're trying to explain -- all I'm saying is that: I don't think that , in the minds of any of us who have understood (as those in this forum have) exactly the kind of vicious game the self-styled "Elite" have been running on humanity, they enjoy any sort of respect, or delegated power, from us at all.

But THAT of course is not the case for a large portion of (unsuspecting) humanity.

If you don't see a way out, then they have total power over you, even now. Think about that.

^^ Been thinking about that too much probably.

The way out is simply not to submit to their constraints over us. It's a mental switch that one must make.

I made a reference to the Planet of the Apes movie series in another thread today which I think will help shed perspective. I'll start a thread on that thought and hopefully that will help.

C1 wrote:

The way out is simply not to submit to their constraints over us. It's a mental switch that one must make.

I don't understand this C1...could you explain further?

Quote :

I made a reference to the Planet of the Apes movie series in another thread today which I think will help shed perspective. I'll start a thread on that thought and hopefully that will help.

Great. I'd love to discuss it, seems like I MAY need some help though.

Thanks!

ScoutsHonor wrote:

C1 wrote:

The way out is simply not to submit to their constraints over us. It's a mental switch that one must make.

I don't understand this C1...could you explain further?

If infinite infinities exist, and man-made systems are inherently incomplete and incongruous, then it follows that man-made systems do not really govern or constrain our lives unless we are complicit in their inherent deceit. So, the choice is ours, play along with the deceit, or not. If we don't, then the rules of nature apply, which means the universal rule of infinite infinities.

Looking back now, I believe that this is where Hegel was going with his work on dialectics, which was to give man a method for discovering his universe of the infinite. What a different world that would have been if his work would have taken hold, and we as individuals would all have known how to employ such powerful techniques of discovery. Their "systems" would have not taken-hold, I think, if we were all experts in discovery. Unfortunately, Marx/Engles turned it around on us, and the dialectics are now used to force someone elses idea of reality onto us.

ScoutsHonor wrote:

Quote :

I made a reference to the Planet of the Apes movie series in another thread today which I think will help shed perspective. I'll start a thread on that thought and hopefully that will help.

Great. I'd love to discuss it, seems like I MAY need some help though.

Thanks!

[/quote]
See other thread on the topic - we can discuss this there.