Freemasonry

The following are powerpoint slides from the video seminar called:

TOTAL ONSLAUGHT: Hidden Agendas - Walter Veith - Amazing Discoveries (212B)

After viewing this one seminar from the series, I now view Freemasonry as another cult that is used as a social engineering tool. Specifically, after reviewing this video, I'm starting to think that Freemasonry was established as a direct competition to the Church, establishing, and/or strengthening, a dialectic between the teachings of Jesus Christ and man-made teachings meant to honor an anti-Christ. But check-out some of these quotes from famous high ranking Masons - it's quite obvious they want people to worship the exact opposite of the teachings of Christianity, and that they want people to think that they can become gods so that they'll have no trouble ruling over others.

Here's the video seminar...

My soon to be brother in law is starting the first meeting in freemasonry. I just finished sending him emails to beware of groups that are not always as they seem. Sent him Riddles in Stone video, some weishaupt, pike, and other masonry info that most people dont see or know about (the hidden hand). Its either his business/money or his soul, thou shalt not make no oaths, the bad thing is we make oaths every time we file taxes, get a drivers license or fill out about any other State paperwork (under penalty of perjury I swear the above information to be true and correct). Sent him the quotes from pikes morals and dogma along with the book link from the library here.

Thanks for the info friends, I will send the link and video as well.

Unmutual wrote:

The following are powerpoint slides from the video seminar called:

TOTAL ONSLAUGHT: Hidden Agendas - Walter Veith - Amazing Discoveries (212B)

After viewing this one seminar from the series, I now view Freemasonry as another cult that is used as a social engineering tool. Specifically, after reviewing this video, I'm starting to think that Freemasonry was established as a direct competition to the Church, establishing, and/or strengthening, a dialectic between the teachings of Jesus Christ and man-made teachings meant to honor an anti-Christ. But check-out some of these quotes from famous high ranking Masons - it's quite obvious they want people to worship the exact opposite of the teachings of Christianity, and that they want people to think that they can become gods so that they'll have no trouble ruling over others.

The lecture itself promotes the dialectic, which is false in my opinion. A false dilemma. There are also numerous factual errors with the Veith's basic premise and information. Kabbalism is a much later phenomenon of the early Middle Ages century and could thus never have seeded the Gnostic tradition. Simon Magus was not the prime figure in the Gnostic tradition and did not offically begin it. He's certainly correct about the connection between the Templars and the Ismailis though. No-one can say with any certainty whether a Templar tradition exists to this day via the medium of "socities with secrets." The Jesuits also did not begin Freemasonry.

I'll have a view of the rest of this but the major problem is that this comes from a steadfastly antagonistic Christian perspective framed against the Book of Revelation as fact. A millenarian myth about as true as the Freemasons dating back to Egypt or Babylon.

The Freemasons did play an enormous role in the shaping of society in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, had a role in revolutions, social engineering, politics, and the like, probably still functions as a feeder network in the top degrees (I believe) for further elite positions of influence within "the system." These days I think its influence is minimal. I think the institution is a skin that has been shed in favour of modern organizations.

Here's some interesting books to read on the subject:

Amazon: The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland's Century from 1590 - 1710 by David Stevenson

PDF (Internet Archive): The Secret Societies of All Ages and Countries: Vol. I by Charles William Heckethorn

PDF (Internet Archive): The Secret Societies of All Ages and Countries: Vol. II by Charles William Heckethorn

Amazon: Living the Enlightenment: Freemasonry and Politics in Eighteenth-Century Europe by Margaret C. Jacob

Amazon: Revolutionary Brotherhood: Freemasonry and the Transformation of the American Social Order, 1730 - 1840 by Steven C. Bullock

Amazon: Builders of Empire: Freemasonry and British Imperialism, 1717 - 1927 by Jessica L. Harland-Jacobs

Amazon: The Mythology of Secret Societies by J.M. Roberts

At around the 9 minute mark Veith makes dubious claims conerning Pike's Morals and Dogma, claiming that the "genuine" copies are only available to masons themselves and that the general public can't obtain them. He then says that he hunted down the genuine copies to glean the secret, hidden info. Let's test his quotes against my Kessinger Publishing version of M&D. The quote at around the 9:30 mark concerning Johannism as the true esoteric faith of the Templars (M&D p. 817) is in my copy, available from Amazon. And in all PDFs and ebooks on the 'net. But it is quite possible that the Templars were Johannites, or of a similar underground stream esoteric belief system, as Pike states.
At around the 12:10 mark the quote he provides from p. 820 of M&D is also in my copy and freely available everywhere on the 'net.
The following quote from around the 20:00 mark, from M&D pp. 213 - 214, is abridged:



Its should read:

Quote :

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it
will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.

If Veith had included the full quote then it wouldn't have looked so sinister to his congregation. Which is what he wanted, and is doing for the entire presentation so far. Preaching and playing on fears, the fear of his church following via fear of God. This is all a poorly researched, shoddily presented show and tell, and intellectually dishnoest.
All the rest of his Morals and Dogma quotes are available anywhere. And Pike was not, and is not considered to be after his death, the grand, Arch-High Philosopher of Freemasonry either, as Veith likes to make out.

Anyway, I managed to get to the 26 minute mark where Veith quite clearly lays out his true gripe that masonry asks individuals to save themselves and be responsible for themselves, and he then states that there is no room for Jesus Christ in this.
Poor show all in all.

What are your thoughts on Eustace Mullins' book The Curse of Caanan?: http://www.amazon.com/Curse-Canaan-Eustace-Mullins/dp/0978651715/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280896269&sr=1-1





I wrote a little on the occult at a COINTEL-infested forum that I hardly visit anymore. What follows is from the aforementioned writing:


It is obvious that Moloch is a Bull, not an Owl. Terry Melanson provides a far superior explanation: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Owl_of_Minerva.htm

Albert Pike DID say, in Morals & Dogma:

“The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whose attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.” (p. 819)

So he considers lower Masons to be just like the “Profane” (porch-masons, in other words), and he condones lying to both parties.

“The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.” (p. 321) (Note: This statement appears contradictory, for Pike seems to state that to the initiates of the 19th degree The Apocalypse is an absolute confirmation of their hatred of Lucifer. Yet he then states that Lucifer is the source of the light of Masonry, and that he is the source of inspiration, having inspired such sages as Plato and Philo. Thus we can conclude that Masons of previous degrees were misled in accordance with Pike’s proclamation that “[Masonry] conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages”. And no, I’m not a Christian. I’m merely pointing out that Pike proclaims Masonry to be Luciferian). Aside from Albert Pike, Manly P. Hall is regarded as one of the most influential Freemasons of modern times. He said "The day has come when Fellow Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." (Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff , Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48 ).

Melanson also gives an excellent overview of Freemasonry here: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Freemasonry.htm

Here’s proof Freemasonry is lying about Albert Pike and the Ku Klux Klan: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/albertpikeandkkk.html

Now, as with most religions, I think most Freemasons are very decent people with positive intentions. That said, an exploration of some of the writings of the authors mentioned will reveal a sort of bizarre eugenic occultism practiced among higher members, and a strain of elitism that one will find paralleled across many aspects of society. Aside from that, the most dangerous aspect of this society is the oaths, which completely undermine the Justice system, as a Mason is far more beholden to his brethren than he is to outsiders, and independent research will discover that the legal system is filled with Masons. The following excerpt comes from Terry Melanson's article:

Quote :

Worshipful Master: “What makes you a Mason?”

Senior Warden: “My Obligation.”
- question and answer, The Entered Apprentice Degree Ritual, Grand Lodge of Nevada

“... binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice.”
- from the oath of obligation, The Entered Apprentice Degree Ritual, Grand Lodge of Nevada

“... binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air, should I ever knowingly, or willfully, violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Fellow Craft.”
- from the oath of obligation, The Fellow Craft Degree Ritual, Grand Lodge of Nevada

“... binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, and with my body burned to ashes, and the ashes thereof scattered to the four winds of Heaven, that there might remain neither track, trace nor remembrance among man or Masons of so vile and perjured a wretch as I should be, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Master Mason.”
- from the oath of obligation, The Master Mason Degree Ritual, Grand Lodge of Nevada

"In willful violation whereof may I incur the fearful penalty of having my eyeballs pierced to the centre with a three-edged blade, my feet flayed, and I be forced to walk the hot sands upon the sterile shores of the Red Sea until the flaming sun shall strike me with livid plague, and may Allah, the god of Arab, Moslem and Mohammedan, the god of our fathers ..."
- from the oath of obligation, Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine ( source)

If a Mason is a defendant in court, Masonic partiality extends to the witness stand. In the Masonic Hand Book we read:

“You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons, except murder and treason, and these only at your own option, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason, be always sure to shield him. Prevaricate, don’t tell the whole truth in this case, keep his secrets, forget the most important points. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you’re keeping your obligations, and remember if you live up to your obligations strictly, you’ll be free from sin.”

Masonic partiality extends to the jury box. The Blue Lodge degrees read:

“Whenever you see any of our signs made by a brother Mason, and especially the grand hailing sign of distress, you must always be sure to obey them, even at the risk of your life. If you’re on a jury, and the defendant is a Mason, and makes the grand hailing sign, you must obey it; you must disagree with your brother jurors, if necessary, but you must be sure not to bring the Mason guilty, for that would bring disgrace upon our order. It may be perjury, to be sure, to do this, but then you’re fulfilling your obligation, and you know if you live up to your obligations you’ll be free from sin.”

Once a Mason reaches Royal Arch degree, he is to conceal all crimes of brother Masons, including murder and treason. Royal Arch Masons swear:

“I will aid and assist a companion Royal Arch Mason, when engaged in any difficulty, and espouse his cause, so far as to extricate him from the same, if in my power, whether he be right or wrong…. A companion Royal Arch Mason’s secrets, given me in charge as such, and I knowing him to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable, in my breast as in his own, murder and treason not excepted.”

- The 9/11 Masonic Capture & Subsequent Terrorist Murder of Capt. William Morgan in the year 1826

Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, and others did touch on the “Ancient Mystery Schools”

One article I remember reading had the following excellent points:

“It is then clear that the other occult belief systems, such as that of Freemasonry, are not necessarily Jewish in origin, but simply have the same roots in the religion of the ancient Middle East; Masonic scholar Manly P. Hall dealt with this in length in literally dozens of books and Albert Pike touched on it as well, saying that though the Masons use the Holy Bible as their “Book of the Law”, they could have just as easily used the Babylonian story of Nimrod, as the symbols and meaning are identical. It is the same in the case of Roman Catholicism, which is also obviously Kabbalistic in nature, containing all the symbols of the ancient solar and stellar cults.

Now, what is this religion of ancient Babylon which seems to feature so prominently in our modern culture? I can tell you it is not about worshiping the sun and gazing at the stars. Ultimately, it is about a science of controlling mass populations through the exploitation of human nature, and it is from this that all economic systems as well as the concept of a Global Government run out of the Middle East stems. The people who run this religion believe they are “the Chosen People” not because of their race, but because they were clever enough and ruthless enough to rise above the masses and attain power and control over the people. In it’s occult aspects there also seems to be an intense belief in otherworldly entities which empower them to move toward this agenda, but that is an issue for another time.

To conclude, it seems that the issue is not in fact “the Zionists”, but this ancient system of control which has existed for thousands of years and which is intent on total enslavement of the human race through scientific means. In short, the entire history of world “civilization” has been a history of oppression and degradation, and the key to it has always been money. It is from the point of the original introduction of money into a “primitive” society that we begin down the road the leads to what we are presently seeing manifest. Without money, there cannot be armies, their can not be generational dynasties, and there cannot be empires. This system is what we need to be fighting against, not simply the pseudo-religion presently claimed by the individuals who reside over this system. And so I have come full circle with my heretical apologetics. The issue is one of economics as a brutal system of mass control, not of race, religion, or anything else.”

The book, The Babylonian Woe, shows how the origins of our exploitative Monetary System coincide with the ascendancy of this Ancient Mystery Religion: http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/the_babylonian_woe.pdf

For a glimpse of how deep the Rabbit Hole goes, please refer to the well documented 3-part series
Secret Mysteries of America’s Beginnings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5loYlDP8dvI&feature=PlayList&p=9844B3D005975636&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

Secret Mysteries of America’s Beginnings discusses the Great Seal. We might want to go to the Masons themselves to see what the Great Seal means to them. Relevant extracts are in this article: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Great_Seal.htm

Here is an excellent documentary called Total Onslaught, which discusses the Occult and Freemasonry, using impeccable sources: http://a.blip.tv/scripts/flash/showplayer.swf?file=http%3A%2F%2Fblip.tv%2Frss%2Fflash%2F3330359%3F

Many ask, if these symbols are significant, why they would be so massively displayed. The answer is simple - it’s a form of mocking the public.

Also, it appears that many of the esoteric secrets these societies involve themselves with relate to mass mind control and possible spiritual sciences. Or it may just be another con designed to fool the elite, who themselves may be controlled. But I’m not going to attempt to prove those statements. They derive from intuition.

For a well documented alternative history of how Masonry influenced society, please refer to Scarlet and the Beast: http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Beast-History-Between-Freemasonary/dp/0963507982/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273217898&sr=1-2

And if you are interested at a balanced look at how the Bavarian Illuminati evolved and moved on after the were supposedly shut down, as well as the history leading up to it, I suggest Perfectibilists, which has won high acclaim as one of the best works to date on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Perfectibilists-Century-Bavarian-Order-Illuminati/dp/0977795381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273282219&sr=1-1 (Note: the letters printed in John Robison and Abbe Barruel’s works ARE accurate and DO reflect the German originals as seized by the Bavarian Police, and recorded in the collection of the Bavarian Elector, regardless of how many pseudo-intellectual academics try to discount this in order to avoid realizing that their “history” education was based on Propaganda). And the Bavarian Illuminati is credited as having inspired Communism in Librarian of Congress James Billington’s book Fire in the Minds of Men, and is reasonably connected to Skull in Bones in Perfectibilists, and suggested in Antony Sutton’s America’s Secret Establishment, which is one of the premiere books on Skull & Bones.

The Classic source for the Illuminati is Proofs of a Conspiracy: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/PROOFS_OF_A_CONSPIRACY_John_Robison.pdf

... which as mentioned, is based on the original German letters.

Official Proof the Iluminati is real:

Source:

United States Library of Congress
The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mgwquery.html

You can search on Library of Congress yourself with the word "Illuminati". Below are the screen copies and the full transcript of George Washington's.  You can search the world "Illuminati" yourself (link above)

http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mgw/mgw2/021/1820176.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mgw/mgw2/021/2000194.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mgw/mgw2/021/2010195.jpg


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[b]George Washington to George Washington Snyder, October 24, 1798 -- Transcription

Mount Vernon, October 24, 1798.

"Revd Sir: I have your favor of the 17th. instant before me; and my only motive to trouble you with the receipt of this letter, is to explain, and correct a mistake which I perceive the hurry in which I am obliged, often, to write letters, have led you into.

It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am.

The idea that I meant to convey, was, [b]that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of seperation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a seperation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned.

My occupations are such, that but little leisure is allowed me to read News Papers, or Books of any kind; the reading of letters, and preparing answers, absorb much of my time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[b]Mount Vernon, September 25, 1798.

"Sir: Many apologies are due to you, for my not acknowledging the receipt of your obliging favour of the 22d. Ulto, and for not thanking you, at an earlier period, for the Book you had the goodness to send me.

I have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati, [b]but never saw the Book until you were pleased to send it to me. The same causes which have prevented my acknowledging the receipt of your letter have prevented my reading the Book, hitherto; namely, the multiplicity of matters which pressed upon me before, and the debilitated state in which I was left after, a severe fever had been removed. And which allows me to add little more now, than thanks for your kind wishes and favourable sentiments, except to correct an error you have run into, of my Presiding over the English lodges in this Country. The fact is, I preside over none, nor have I been in one more than once or twice, within the last thirty years. I believe notwithstanding, that none of the Lodges in this Country are contaminated with the principles ascribed to the Society of the Illuminati. With respect I am &c."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Note : In a letter from Snyder (Aug. 22, 1798, which is in the Washington Papers), it is stated that this book "gives a full Account of a Society of Free-Masons, that distinguishes itself by the Name of 'Illuminati,' whose Plan is to overturn all Government and all Religion, even natural."]

http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=56418
G. W. Snyder to George Washington (August 22, 1798)

Certified: Yes

Volume: The Papers of George Washington: Retirement Series, 2 Pages: 554-557

Frederick-Town (Maryland) Augt 22. 1798.

"Sir,

You will, I hope, not think it a Presumption in a Stranger, whose Name, perhaps never reached your Ears, to address himself to you the Commanding General of a great Nation. I am a German, born and liberally educated in the City of Heydelberg in the Palatinate of the Rhine. I came to this Country in 1776, and felt soon after my Arrival a close Attachment to the Liberty for which these confederated States then struggled. The same Attachment still remains not glowing, but burning in my Breast. At the same Time that I am exulting in the Measures adopted by our Government, I feel myself elevated in the Idea of my adopted Country. I am attached both from the Bent of Education and mature Enquiry and Search to the simple Doctrines of Christianity, which I have the Honor to teach in Public; and I do heartily despise all the Cavils of Infidelity. Our present Time, pregnant with the most shocking Evils and Calamities, threatens Ruin to our Liberty and Goverment. Secret, the most secret Plans are in Agitation: Plans, calculated to ensnare the Unwary, to attract the Gay and irreligious, and to entice even the Well-disposed to combine in the general Machine for overturning all Government and all Religion.

It was some Time since that a Book fell into my Hands entituled "Proofs of a Conspiracy &c. by John Robison," [b]which gives a full Account of a Society of Freemasons, that distinguishes itself by the Name "of Illuminati," whose Plan is to overturn all Government and all Religion, even natural; and who endeavour to eradicate every Idea of a Supreme Being, and distinguish Man from Beast by his Shape only. A Thought suggested itself to me, that some of the Lodges in the United States might have caught the Infection, and might cooperate with the Illuminati or the Jacobine Club in France. Fauchet is mentioned by Robison as a zealous Member: and who can doubt of Genet and Adet? Have not these their Confidants in this Country? They use the same Expressions and are generally Men of no Religion. Upon serious Reflection I was led to think that it might be within your Power to prevent the horrid Plan from corrupting the Brethren of the English Lodge over which you preside.

I send you the "Proof of a Conspiracy &c." which, I doubt not, will give you Satisfaction and afford you Matter for a Train of Ideas, that may operate to our national Felicity. If, however, you have already perused the Book, it will not, I trust, be disagreeable to you that I have presumed to address you with this Letter and the Book accompanying it. It proceeded from the Sincerity of my Heart and my ardent Wishes for the common Good.

May the Supreme Ruler of all Things continue You long with us in these perilous Times: may he endow you with Strength and Wisdom to save our Country in the threatening Storms and gathering Clouds of Factions and Commotions! and after you have completed his Work on this terrene Spot, may He bring you to the full Possession of the glorious Liberty of the Children of God, is the hearty and most sincere Wish of Your Excellency's very humble and devoted Servant"

G. W. Snyder

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The archives from George Washington himself prove that not only they exist, but they were intensively active in America.  Though George Washington, as Freemason, denied participation of Freemasonry as a whole in the Illuminati order - which was known to recruit members inside the freemasonry - he acknowledged that their presence in America was not unknown to him, "on the contrary" in his own word, as seen in the above authentic documents.

Many of these sources are Christian, but they still are accurate and reasonable, and their information is well documented.

Also, if one really cares, they might want to read the writings of the esotericists themselves. Some are listed in the “Alan Watt Recommended Book List”: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19388604/Alan-Watt-Recommended-Book-List

Charlotte Iserbyt has an excellent presentation that puts this all together:

inquirer wrote:

What are your thoughts on Eustace Mullins' book The Curse of Caanan?: http://www.amazon.com/Curse-Canaan-Eustace-Mullins/dp/0978651715/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280896269&sr=1-1

I haven't read it as yet, it's a very difficult and expensive book to get hold of. If you have read it please give me a breakdown.

inquirer wrote:

It is obvious that Moloch is a Bull, not an
Owl. Terry Melanson provides a far superior explanation:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Owl_of_Minerva.htm

Yes, I've read that previously. What is your point though?

inquirer wrote:

Albert Pike DID say, in Morals & Dogma:

“The
Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of
the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally
misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall
understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands
them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of
Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so
carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet
impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well
enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is
contained in the Blue Degrees; and whose attempts to undeceive them will
labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as
an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the
sands heaped round it by the ages.” (p. 819)

So he considers
lower Masons to be just like the “Profane” (porch-masons, in other
words), and he condones lying to both parties.

Yes, this quote is the usual suspect from the anti-Masonic conspiracy crowd (this movement does exist, it's the false dilemma, the dialectic I referred to earler. Time to dissolve the dualistic thought control process), trotted put with monotonous regularity. Sources and quotes of a far more recent type need to be fond for such investigations to have any foundation. Terry Melanson, who you refer to thoughout your post, has done this in recent Conspiracy Archive blog posts.

inquirer wrote:

“The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the
nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to
God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER,
the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of
Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the
Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or
selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine
Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of
one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.” (p. 321) (Note: This
statement appears contradictory, for Pike seems to state that to the
initiates of the 19th degree The Apocalypse is an absolute confirmation
of their hatred of Lucifer. Yet he then states that Lucifer is the
source of the light of Masonry, and that he is the source of
inspiration, having inspired such sages as Plato and Philo. Thus we can
conclude that Masons of previous degrees were misled in accordance with
Pike’s proclamation that “[Masonry] conceals its secrets from all except
the Adepts and Sages”. And no, I’m not a Christian. I’m merely pointing
out that Pike proclaims Masonry to be Luciferian). Aside from Albert
Pike, Manly P. Hall is regarded as one of the most influential
Freemasons of modern times. He said "The day has come when Fellow
Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their
grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the
universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with
great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and
selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the
block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has
learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are
in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove
his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps
of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war
god hammered his sword into a plowshare." (Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree,
K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff ,
Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J.
Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply
Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48 ).

My point with Veith was to make clear his factual errors, his intellectual dishonesty, and that the reason for this was his emphasis and bias. Whether someone is of a particular religion or not makes no odds, as long as their research seeks facts, instead of twisting them to suit their own ends.
Terry Melanson, again, is a researcher/historian who happens to be Christian but his methodology is far more sound and rigorous then someone like Veith. He's probably one of the very best in these subject areas that is out there. But he still has a particular bias as a consequence of his faith, and for me analysing the the source of the information can be as valuable as the information presented itself. The Church and the faithful are nearly as entrenched against the masons as the Muslims are set against the Jews.
Every single book I recommended in a post previous Terry would also highly recommend. Because I found every book but two through his research and all, I believe, are in his Google Books reading list.
Manly P. Hall is someone we need to move beyond in researching Freemasonry. He's no longer relevant in terms of cutting edge in any way. Also unreliable and inaccurate. Still an interesting writer though.

inquirer wrote:

Here’s proof Freemasonry is lying about Albert Pike and the Ku Klux Klan: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/albertpikeandkkk.html

I don't see that the connection alleged in that article between Pike and the KKK is relevant in any way to my posts in this thread regarding the errors made by Veith.

inquirer wrote:

Now, as with most religions, I think most
Freemasons are very decent people with positive intentions. That said,
an exploration of some of the writings of the authors mentioned will
reveal a sort of bizarre eugenic occultism practiced among higher
members, and a strain of elitism that one will find paralleled across
many aspects of society. Aside from that, the most dangerous aspect of
this society is the oaths, which completely undermine the Justice
system, as a Mason is far more beholden to his brethren than he is to
outsiders, and independent research will discover that the legal system
is filled with Masons.

The top tier of the system is made of individuals from many different privileged societies, cliques, clubs, and other elite feeder organizations. Across the world the situation varies enormously.

inquirer wrote:

The book, The Babylonian Woe, shows how
the origins of our exploitative Monetary System coincide with the
ascendancy of this Ancient Mystery Religion:
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/the_babylonian_woe.pdf

I haven't read the book. What's your view of its content?

inquirer wrote:

For a glimpse of how deep the Rabbit Hole goes, please refer to the well documented 3-part series
Secret Mysteries of America’s Beginnings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5loYlDP8dvI&feature=PlayList&p=9844B3D005975636&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

I haven't viewed that as yet.

inquirer wrote:

Here is an excellent documentary called Total Onslaught,
which discusses the Occult and Freemasonry, using impeccable sources:
http://a.blip.tv/scripts/flash/showplayer.swf?file=http%3A%2F%2Fblip.tv%2Frss%2Fflash%2F3330359%3F

Not interested in Veith's work. I can see what he is about.

inquirer wrote:

Many ask, if these symbols are significant,
why they would be so massively displayed. The answer is simple - it’s a
form of mocking the public.

Also, it appears that many of the esoteric secrets these societies
involve themselves with relate to mass mind control and possible
spiritual sciences. Or it may just be another con designed to fool the
elite, who themselves may be controlled. But I’m not going to attempt to
prove those statements. They derive from intuition.

Intuition's not enough for me. There are many, many reasons for these symbols to be displayed. Not least the Renaissance concept of the emblem. The Renaissance, the era that the mystic orders and secret socities crystalized in their more modern incarnation. A continuation of a tradition, and the tradition.

inquirer wrote:

For a well documented alternative history of how Masonry influenced society, please refer to Scarlet and the Beast:

http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Beast-History-Between-Freemasonary/dp/0963507982/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273217898&sr=1-2

A book I want to read sometime. What's it's like?

inquirer wrote:

And if you are interested at a balanced look at how the Bavarian
Illuminati evolved and moved on after the were supposedly shut down, as
well as the history leading up to it, I suggest Perfectibilists,
which has won high acclaim as one of the best works to date on the
subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Perfectibilists-Century-Bavarian-Order-Illuminati/dp/0977795381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273282219&sr=1-1
(Note: the letters printed in John Robison and Abbe Barruel’s works
ARE accurate and DO reflect the German originals as seized by the
Bavarian Police, and recorded in the collection of the Bavarian Elector,
regardless of how many pseudo-intellectual academics try to discount
this in order to avoid realizing that their “history” education was
based on Propaganda). And the Bavarian Illuminati is credited as having
inspired Communism in Librarian of Congress James Billington’s book Fire in the Minds of Men, and is reasonably connected to Skull in Bones in Perfectibilists, and suggested in Antony Sutton’s America’s Secret Establishment, which is one of the premiere books on Skull & Bones.

The Classic source for the Illuminati is Proofs of a Conspiracy: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/PROOFS_OF_A_CONSPIRACY_John_Robison.pdf

... which as mentioned, is based on the original German letters.

I've read Terry Melanson's work. If you had read it you would know that he is of the opinion that the organization was terminated conclusively, though he concedes, like James Billington, that certain philosophies and methodologies applied by Weishaupt's group have influenced other movements of more recent times. Sutton's book is very good and has far more relevance to the situation in modern times.

I'm not sure about "pseudo-intellectuals," but you should realize that Terry Melanson invests heavily in the work of leading academics in the subject areas he researches. Academia is not necessarily Propaganda 101.

inquirer wrote:

Official Proof the Iluminati is real:

Was real.The Bavarian Illuminati no longer exists.

inquirer wrote:

[b]George Washington to George Washington Snyder, October 24, 1798 -- Transcription

Mount Vernon, October 24, 1798.

"Revd
Sir: I have your favor of the 17th. instant before me; and my only
motive to trouble you with the receipt of this letter, is to explain,
and correct a mistake which I perceive the hurry in which I am obliged,
often, to write letters, have led you into.

It
was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati,
and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the
contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am.

The idea that I meant to convey, was, [b]that
I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had,
as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the
first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible
of seperation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the
founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in
the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a
seperation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident
to be questioned.

My occupations are such, that but little
leisure is allowed me to read News Papers, or Books of any kind; the
reading of letters, and preparing answers, absorb much of my time.

This was back from the original Bavarian Illuminati scare when the nascent United States were scared witless that Weishaupt's dreaded band was reaching across the Atlantic. Modern examples are needed.

inquirer wrote:

Also, if one really cares, they might want to read the writings of the esotericists themselves.

I've read much of "the esotericists" myself. They're painfully unreliable.

I'll take a look at the Iserbyt video when I can fit it in. I've been wanting to view it for a while now.

I'm sorry

I agree that Veith is promoting a dialectic. I just posted a verbatim transcript of a forum post I created debunking a typical JREF "debunker". I will re-edit my post later to make it more relevant.

No need to apologize here. I realize that this was a re-posting of something that you placed on another forum, but since you had posted it again now I thought that you considered it mostly relevant to the thread content, and since you had taken time at some point to construct a long piece with some interesting information and points I wanted to tackle it.