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 from a conversation I had with offthepage

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Ben Steigmann

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PostSubject: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Tue 25 May 2010, 4:32 pm

offthepage wrote:
inquirer wrote:
you said a while ago...


offthepage wrote:
inquirer wrote:
offthepage wrote:
While I have found lots of problems with the documentary series itself, mostly offering standard retail conspiracy theory conclusions, that was clearly not enough to doubt the authenticity of the film maker, for they could just be another uninformed truther buying the standard conspiracy Disinfo.

I am confused by this. I see the system as oligarchical power extended through networks, which uses conspiracies to get things done. You seem to regard "conspiracies" as red herrings. Could you explain?
It's not about the people that are involved, it is about the system design. The players are irrelevant. Cybernetic system design, which is what we are victim of, has absolutely nothing to do with Conspiracies and everything to do with science and control theories.

But I am confused by this also. While it is obvious that our society is scientifically structured by control theories, are you denying the existence of an oligarchical system. Are you implying that David rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, and so on, are very much like the outer party from Orwell's 1984, and are themselves not free agents, but bound up within the system.

Also, what are the events of 9/11, Iran-Contra, the JFK assassination, etc., if not conspiracies? What is the fact that International Bankers financed both the U.S. and the Soviet Union, if it is not a conspiracy? I agree with you that this system makes explicit overarching agendas, but it appears that conspiracies are used to get the dirty work done.

I do agree with you that you are discussing relevant information, something which only a few have also done. So many here seem to like to feign an intellectual superiority to those in the alternative media, but rarely explore the information the alternative media omits.

These people were found by the system, not the other way around. Rockefeller, Kissinger, Soros, etc., they were identified, cultivated, groomed to play their roles. Think of it as a play or a movie, the script, storyline, roles and character definitions are planned, and all that has to happen is people need to be found to fill the various positions.

Bankers are just another instrument of the system. Think of this as warfare. These are just another weapon system against society.

I am still confused by this though. What is the power structure if not finance oligarchy? And what are the events I have described if not conspiracies?

And what led you to believe that those we see as financ oligarchs were groomed for their role, and don't posess actual power?
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Tue 25 May 2010, 5:43 pm

Wow, welcome to the board. Very Happy

I'm working right now, but will participate later.
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They Live

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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Tue 25 May 2010, 5:55 pm

So glad you could make it, OTP. This is going to be interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Tue 25 May 2010, 9:15 pm

If people need to be found then who is finding them? Is the system running itself?
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Tue 25 May 2010, 10:21 pm

People like Kissenger etc are psychopathic evil geniuses drawn to this type of work, groomed by those of similar makeup for their positions. This system is self replicating, with the psychopaths always advancing to positions where they can gain the most advantage for themselves. I also think there are huge conspiracies among these type but for them it's just another day at the office.
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Wed 26 May 2010, 2:14 am

May I suggest checking out the Screwtape Letters (audio book or article series). I think CS Lewis nailed the system better than anyone in his "fictional" account of a senior Demon teaching his protege how to corrupt a poor human subject. There was a thread on this started some time ago, with a video clip of a new production of the works.

http://wwws.forummotion.com/culture-media-f9/screwtape-letters-this-is-what-is-being-done-to-us-t298.htm

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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Wed 26 May 2010, 11:02 am

What a thoughtful discussion. Will BBL.
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Fri 28 May 2010, 1:23 pm

incognito wrote:
People like Kissenger etc are psychopathic evil geniuses drawn to this type of work, groomed by those of similar makeup for their positions. This system is self replicating, with the psychopaths always advancing to positions where they can gain the most advantage for themselves. I also think there are huge conspiracies among these type but for them it's just another day at the office.
I think this response is certainly on the right track, but I need to think about how best to answer this. It's almost like a chicken versus the egg situation with respect to how this started. Bear with me while I ponder this and I will add thoughts here as appropriate.
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Ben Steigmann

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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Fri 23 Jul 2010, 2:33 am

so Offthepage, any insights yet?


Last edited by inquirer on Fri 23 Jul 2010, 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Fri 23 Jul 2010, 10:11 am

C1 wrote:
May I suggest checking out the Screwtape Letters (audio book or article series). I think CS Lewis nailed the system better than anyone in his "fictional" account of a senior Demon teaching his protege how to corrupt a poor human subject. There was a thread on this started some time ago, with a video clip of a new production of the works.

http://wwws.forummotion.com/culture-media-f9/screwtape-letters-this-is-what-is-being-done-to-us-t298.htm

I can see how Screwtape Letters relate to our society, but using that analogy, who are the demon's pulling the strings? Are they actually human beings? Or is this system self sustaining where everyone is pulling everyone's strings? A form of circular motion where corruption is always trying to out-corrupt the competition, spiraling downward as it may be.
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Fri 23 Jul 2010, 8:19 pm

inquirer wrote:
But I am confused by this also. While it is obvious that our society is scientifically structured by control theories, are you denying the existence of an oligarchical system. Are you implying that David rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, and so on, are very much like the outer party from Orwell's 1984, and are themselves not free agents, but bound up within the system.

Also, what are the events of 9/11, Iran-Contra, the JFK assassination, etc., if not conspiracies? What is the fact that International Bankers financed both the U.S. and the Soviet Union, if it is not a conspiracy? I agree with you that this system makes explicit overarching agendas, but it appears that conspiracies are used to get the dirty work done.
This is really challenging material to address. But in very summary form, rockefeller, kissinger and finance capital are merely means to an end. Power is the end game, and all these people and techniques are nothing other than a way to maintain power. If there were better systems available, and we happen to be in the process of transitioning to one right now, then those better systems and techniques are employed.

Somewhere on the forum, either I or another poster posted some key excerpts from Jack London's book, Iron Heel. That book, and those excerpts do an excellent job of explaining the end game.

Oh, and as far as conspiracies, like the JFK thingy, those are just the system reacting to a threat. Look up the biological phenomena called "Quorum sensing" and see how that works. The same system in place in the body can be said to be applied in human social systems.

http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=27

Clairvoyant wrote:
I can see how Screwtape Letters relate to our society, but using that analogy, who are the demon's pulling the strings? Are they actually human beings? Or is this system self sustaining where everyone is pulling everyone's strings? A form of circular motion where corruption is always trying to out-corrupt the competition, spiraling downward as it may be.
Again, I see the demon analogy simply being illustrative of the techniques that the system has found to work best. So, the demon pulling the strings is whoever is in control of society's levers at the time. So, like your spiral analogy, I'd say that there is a spiral upward as well. Where the most corrupt, the most ponerized, move to the top of this system.

If we could put in place another societal system, I think it could be designed such that the ponerized are automatically relegated to the margins.... almost a self-policing policy across society. I don't understand why this has not happened within humanity's existence, as it doesn't seem like it would that difficult.

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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Sat 24 Jul 2010, 3:11 am

How long do you think the system was as evolved as this (in a cybernetic, "sense and respond" fashion). Do you think it was when the House of Rothschild achieved full spectrum dominance after wiping out the Romanovs? (see Eustace Mullins, The World Order)

In discussing the House of Rothschild, I am not focusing on who instead of what, but rather, I am showing the personages through which power, violence, psychopathy, and monopoly manifest in this global beehive (with the House being equivalent to the "Queen Bee").

When I said "it appears that conspiracies are used to get the dirty work done.", I was trying to address the Sense and Respond notion you put across in a different way. People who focus a lot on conspiracies like that "Evidence of Revision" maker are not necessarily wrong, but they are engaging in vectoring, since they confuse the methodology of Sense and Respond that the Global Beehive used at the time of the assassinations (conspiracy), with the system itself, which at the time was a finance oligarchy assisted by Central Banks, Roundtables/Foundations/"think tanks", and the Military-Industrial-Academic Complex. In time, if we are unsuccessful in avoiding the panned changes, we will witness a fully cybernetic system utilizing Network Centric Warfare. I still do not fully understand the "Marx 2.0" that you and offthepage describe, but I am sure it fits in with this.

C1 wrote:
If we could put in place another societal system, I think it could be designed such that the ponerized are automatically relegated to the margins.... almost a self-policing policy across society. I don't understand why this has not happened within humanity's existence, as it doesn't seem like it would that difficult.

That statement shows that "Sense and Respond" is not necessarily a bad thing, but it depends on what the system is programmed for. To the normal public, Risk Management Software is believed to do this, but due to Indira Singh's testimony and the work of those who have followed in her footsteps, we now realize that the reality is the opposite of what is ideal, and what is being put into place is an elimination grid where the oligarchy programs this software to maintain the pyramid/beehive of power, and those who might find ways to gain freedom for themselves and others would be recognized as outliers and quickly dealt with.


Last edited by inquirer on Mon 23 Aug 2010, 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Sat 24 Jul 2010, 7:34 pm

inquirer wrote:
I still do not fully understand the "Marx 2.0" that you and offthepage describe, but I am sure it fits in with this.
I think the first time I heard the "Marx 2.0" term was from OTP, but I maybe wrong. Anyway, I like it!

inquirer wrote:
That statement shows that "Sense and Respond" is not necessarily a bad thing, but it depends on what the system is programmed for.
It's a horrible thing. Technique, as Ellul would describe it, gives one individual the capability to gain power over others. Our society should be constantly trying to purge itself of technique, such as sense and respond systems employed by some humans for use on other humans.

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PostSubject: Re: from a conversation I had with offthepage   Sun 25 Jul 2010, 2:45 am

but you contradicted yourself when you said "If we could put in place another societal system, I think it could be designed such that the ponerized are automatically relegated to the margins.... almost a self-policing policy across society. I don't understand why this has not happened within humanity's existence, as it doesn't seem like it would that difficult."

Actually - I think I know what you were saying, and I now realize I was confused. You want every individual to be developed mentally to the point where collectively, they form a sense and respond system which would not require technique.
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