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 The Promise of Non-Rational Thought

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ScoutsHonor

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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Thu 28 Jan 2010, 2:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

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Sorry to go on about this, but I believe these misunderstandings are near the core of the great mistakes of our modern civilization. Of course there is much more I can say about this.

Please do...I find this line of thought 'energizing', to say the least. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 1:34 am

Please forgive me if I miss anything in my reply. You've thrown a lot at me and I confuse easily, and besides, like Socrates, I don't really know anything. So with that little cop out I'll try to make sense.

This is all reacting to my little article on rational thought/reason which I claim is linguistic, and only symbolic in nature and hence can not lead us to truth about reality because reality is not symbolic. So please understand that I really don't think any of this can lead to any sort of important knowledge since what we are doing is reasoning. That's what I mean when I suspect the very existence of universal truths like those that are stated by intellectuals trying to define god, love, mind, time, etc., or who think they know the "meaning" or "point" of life, etc. All these great questions have been debated throughout human history with virtually no consensus and no hope for any. All I see out there (including in this forum) is a planet full of opinion.

So, ScoutsHonor, you consider yourself an Objectivist? I read one of Rand's books when young but nothing since, so I hope you will fill me in on her ideas where I make mistakes. Have known some good people that like her though. Discussing Ayn might be a whole new thread you know. Huge stuff here. I see where the "reality exists independently of our perception" comes from. Of course that is the obvious and common sensual assumption. It's how it appears and it's a working assumption of mine, but again provisional. I just assume objectivity exists and behave accordingly just as I assume this table I'm leaning on is solid even though physics tells me it is 99.99999999999% empty space. Yes, I too believe that reality exists objectively, but it is a belief and not certain knowledge. All I have for evidence is my perception of it and a great deal of subjective consensus hearsay. You say it is something of which you are certain, but that's just another opinion to me. How does Ayn attempt to prove it?

She also espouses "egoism". Not having read her, I don't really know what she means, but I have a lot to say about that term. It's another fulcrum word for me, like reason. I mean it is very important and almost universally misunderstood and misused (like rational). Ego became a popular term with the advent of psychology as I'm sure you know, but do you know the actual meaning of the word? It is latin for self. Egoism is selfism or selfishness and is antithetical to the golden rule to say the least. All the great criminals of human history were egoists who identified only with self and never with other. I believe she stressed the independence of the individual which is just unrealistic. It is ignoring the very dependence upon each other and nature that has given us this mad civilization that is destroying the earth. But I'm sure that's not what she meant is it? But it is what the criminal elites in the world mean when they talk about the sacredness of the individual and right to property. Few will say property is not a right, but conservative philosophy defends the ownership of everything by a few. Surely not Ayn!

You say "reality functions according to the Laws of Cause and Effect". It is another thing of which you are certain. We all operate as if that is the case as everything seems to work that way in the day to day, but that is really medieval thinking. Newton "proved" it , but then along came quantum theory which transcends Newtonian reality. Everyone ignores quantum theory because it seems so non-commonsensical, but I hope you will study it much more. It could revolutionize your reality.

You say you are certain you exist. I believe I exist and do just as well as you with mere belief. I think certainty is just emotionally based arrogance. A logical philosophical case can be made that there is really only one I in existence. You could call it god if you like, and we are all little bits of the great I, and exist only ephemerally within the dream of this supreme I, in which case you and I don't really exist as separate beings at all. This view holds that when you gaze deeply into the eyes of another, the reason you go into trance is that you are seeing your self, because you are really god pretending that you are not. This is believed by hundreds of millions of Indians. I assume a different cosmology, but I do not, and I say cannot know who is right, if anyone. As the great Taoist sage Chuangtzu once (supposedly) said "if anyone knew, everyone would have told his brother"!

You know, suggesting that without universal truths and certainties we would be lost somehow with no moral compass, etc., just seems silly to me. It's really the same argument Christian proselytes make when they say atheists have no moral center, etc. Just silly. You all think you need something to cling to. All you have are beliefs and assumtions and so on and there's nothing wrong with that. You cannot prove anything.

Last night I realized that I do believe in one thing that you could call a universal truth and that is "all things change" or the other version "all things must pass". Of course I believe it, but don't know it is true.

And its wrote:
Quote :
"man is not a god"
as an example of an absolute or certainty. No one knows whether there are such things as gods or not. All we have there is belief. If you can prove otherwise, you will be the first in history. If we don't know that gods exist or not, we can't know if a man is one or not, since we don't know what or whether they are. Do you see? I do agree with you that the elite want us to be lost and confused though. That keeps us from acting in large numbers in an organized manner. Keeps us in conflict with each other instead of with them.

By the way, did you know that wanting some solid thing, some certain thing, some absolute dependable thing to relate everything to is a relativistic position?
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They Live

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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 1:45 am

No absolute truths, no absolute lies, everything is up for grabs.

Wonder how long it will take for the elite to convince us that we are no longer necessary, obsolete, and the universe is better off with technological replacements.

Tell me, who installed your elitist programming?
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 3:39 am

If there is no Universal Truth, then the statement that "Truth is Relative" is also not true.

Also, exactly what promise does non-rational thought hold for humanity? I don't get what the benefit is of this type of thinking.
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 1:30 pm

WTF, your background is in film & media ("classified film projects") for the intelligence services and the Pentagon?

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/evidenceofrevision.html

"Terrence Raymond began his work in the wake of 1974’s Watergate scandal. After President Richard Nixon’s resignation, and after Gerald Ford assumed office, he received secret clearance status and worked on classified film projects for the Pentagon, the White House, and possibly intelligence agencies. Upon being transferred to a reconnaissance squadron in the Florida Keys, Raymond was assigned temporary duty as a petty officer to a supply facility which, according to him, was most likely operated by the CIA.

Being in such close proximity to Agency spooks, political scandals, and media manipulators, Raymond witnessed first-hand a world that increasingly resembled George Orwell’s 1984, complete with doublethink, perpetual war, “Newspeak” propaganda, behavior modification, genetic control, and the alteration of history."
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 3:46 pm

its wrote:
Quote :
No absolute truths, no absolute lies, everything is up for grabs.
Wonder how long it will take for the elite to convince us that we are no longer necessary, obsolete, and the universe is better off with technological replacements.
Tell me, who installed your elitist programming?

I think the elites already consider most of us unnecessary and do hope to replace us with high tech androids eventually. I've suspected for decades that the elite think tanks have long discussed ways to evolve the world into the image described on the Georgia guide stones. We are mostly sub-human villains to them. Did you know that the word villain originated as the elite's word for common people in Europe 7 centuries ago? That's what they think of common folk, but then you obviously know that.

I'm sorry you find my thinking so threatening, but I'm getting used to being attacked for it. You know you sound exactly like so many of the Christian proselytes I have debated over the decades, (I once debated an elder from a local Jehovah's Witness temple every weekend for six months before he grandly pronounced me a minion of the devil and refused to talk any further). Instead of saying I'm a tool of the devil you pronounce me a tool of the elites with "elite progamming". There is so much of this nonsense on the net with people attacking each other simply over disagreements or misunderstandings. You know the primary tool of COINTELPRO was to seed the targeted group with conflict and thus divide and conquer, and I believe they are still doing it causing cat-fights between people like Alex Jones and Jeff Rense and others. If I were a tool of the elites I certainly wouldn't have created any of the videos I have.

Quote :
Also, exactly what promise does non-rational thought hold for humanity? I don't get what the benefit is of this type of thinking.

It's clear you don't understand what I'm saying. You are in the majority so you can take some comfort in that. I only say what I see and try to be comfortable with the fact that others see it differently. I write about these ideas as clearly as I can, but as I said, they are difficult. 15 or 20 years ago I asked myself the question, "Just what the hell is reason? What is it?" The definitions I encountered were inadequate, so I began to stridently ask myself the question every day. I contemplated it over meals, and as I worked during the day. Gradually, as the years passed, I gained a little insight here and a little there until I reached the understanding I have today. I don't know why I should expect anyone to understand what took me so long to see, by reading a single article or even many. One problem is that we all have slightly different dictionaries in our minds when it comes to less common ideas. Our dictionaries agree well on the trivial commonalities, but when we get into the more abstract stuff that I like to move in, the commonalities in our definitions begin to break down and communication fails.

As the years of working on reason/rational thought passed, I began understanding how the abstract-symbolic nature of linguistic thinking divorces us from the natural world which is real and not abstract-symbolic. When we think about reality rationally (rationing reality into little bits and assigning symbols to each bit, then mentally stringing them together like little "trains of thought" and following them along linearly ignoring the vast majority of reality and just concentrating our minds on the abstractions) we are mentally existing in a symbolically linguistic simulation of reality. Consequently we are guaranteed to make errors all along the way. This is a major part of why human progress is so slow. Yes you can describe it as fast if you like, but just contemplate why it is that most of us learn "by mistake" so much. Many have written that this is really how all progress is made. If so, why all the mistakes if reason is to great. Well, of course it is great, but so very flawed. That is what I am trying to tell people. That is the insight I value, that reason/rational thought actually removes us from reality and forces us into error. What I mean by non-rational thought is simply the activity of looking directly at reality without the inner or outer dialogues and seeing it as it is, without looking through the distorting lense of language.

Also, I gained much of this understanding during long (8-12 hour) meditations interspersed with periods of intense contemplation. During the meditations I ended the "inner dialogue" and simply looked at reality sans language, then came back and attempted to "language" what I perceived in order to communicate it to others. As you might imagine, I went well "beyond the pale" of the common cultural reality view. Insights gained here are bound to seem like pretty "funny ideas" to conventional thinkers. So I may be doomed to failure in trying to communicate them.

Quote :
WTF, your background is in film & media ("classified film projects") for the intelligence services and the Pentagon?

My "background" is 58 years long. The work I did in Washington during the Ford administration was as an enlisted photographer's mate in the Navy assigned as a sound recordist to the Presidential Motion Picture Crew and was for only about two years. Photomates often get assigned to intelligence commands because photography is seen by the military as an important part of intelligence work. There were intelligence people around and I got to observe and learn. The fellow who wrote the article about me likes to sensationalize things a bit. I've talked with him about it, but that's just his way. I have lived a very very unusual unconventional life in many ways. If I told you my life story, I doubt you'd believe it.

Someone else in this forum sent me a private message calling your message "boneheaded". They wrote you a reply, then deleted it, feeling it was futile. The fellow who wrote me the message said he is leaving this forum due to its limitations, though he was less polite. I'll try to hang in for the moment, but of course it is immensely frustrating for me to "bang my head" against the wall, figuratively speaking. But then that's the nature of most rational discourse (as my article suggests).
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 4:02 pm

Conspiratus wrote:
its wrote:
Quote :
No absolute truths, no absolute lies, everything is up for grabs.
Wonder how long it will take for the elite to convince us that we are no longer necessary, obsolete, and the universe is better off with technological replacements.
Tell me, who installed your elitist programming?

I think the elites already consider most of us unnecessary and do hope to replace us with high tech androids eventually. I've suspected for decades that the elite think tanks have long discussed ways to evolve the world into the image described on the Georgia guide stones. We are mostly sub-human villains to them. Did you know that the word villain originated as the elite's word for common people in Europe 7 centuries ago? That's what they think of common folk, but then you obviously know that.

I'm sorry you find my thinking so threatening, but I'm getting used to being attacked for it. You know you sound exactly like so many of the Christian proselytes I have debated over the decades, (I once debated an elder from a local Jehovah's Witness temple every weekend for six months before he grandly pronounced me a minion of the devil and refused to talk any further). Instead of saying I'm a tool of the devil you pronounce me a tool of the elites with "elite progamming". There is so much of this nonsense on the net with people attacking each other simply over disagreements or misunderstandings. You know the primary tool of COINTELPRO was to seed the targeted group with conflict and thus divide and conquer, and I believe they are still doing it causing cat-fights between people like Alex Jones and Jeff Rense and others. If I were a tool of the elites I certainly wouldn't have created any of the videos I have.

Quote :
Also, exactly what promise does non-rational thought hold for humanity? I don't get what the benefit is of this type of thinking.

It's clear you don't understand what I'm saying. You are in the majority so you can take some comfort in that. I only say what I see and try to be comfortable with the fact that others see it differently. I write about these ideas as clearly as I can, but as I said, they are difficult. 15 or 20 years ago I asked myself the question, "Just what the hell is reason? What is it?" The definitions I encountered were inadequate, so I began to stridently ask myself the question every day. I contemplated it over meals, and as I worked during the day. Gradually, as the years passed, I gained a little insight here and a little there until I reached the understanding I have today. I don't know why I should expect anyone to understand what took me so long to see, by reading a single article or even many. One problem is that we all have slightly different dictionaries in our minds when it comes to less common ideas. Our dictionaries agree well on the trivial commonalities, but when we get into the more abstract stuff that I like to move in, the commonalities in our definitions begin to break down and communication fails.

As the years of working on reason/rational thought passed, I began understanding how the abstract-symbolic nature of linguistic thinking divorces us from the natural world which is real and not abstract-symbolic. When we think about reality rationally (rationing reality into little bits and assigning symbols to each bit, then mentally stringing them together like little "trains of thought" and following them along linearly ignoring the vast majority of reality and just concentrating our minds on the abstractions) we are mentally existing in a symbolically linguistic simulation of reality. Consequently we are guaranteed to make errors all along the way. This is a major part of why human progress is so slow. Yes you can describe it as fast if you like, but just contemplate why it is that most of us learn "by mistake" so much. Many have written that this is really how all progress is made. If so, why all the mistakes if reason is to great. Well, of course it is great, but so very flawed. That is what I am trying to tell people. That is the insight I value, that reason/rational thought actually removes us from reality and forces us into error. What I mean by non-rational thought is simply the activity of looking directly at reality without the inner or outer dialogues and seeing it as it is, without looking through the distorting lense of language.

Also, I gained much of this understanding during long (8-12 hour) meditations interspersed with periods of intense contemplation. During the meditations I ended the "inner dialogue" and simply looked at reality sans language, then came back and attempted to "language" what I perceived in order to communicate it to others. As you might imagine, I went well "beyond the pale" of the common cultural reality view. Insights gained here are bound to seem like pretty "funny ideas" to conventional thinkers. So I may be doomed to failure in trying to communicate them.

Quote :
WTF, your background is in film & media ("classified film projects") for the intelligence services and the Pentagon?

My "background" is 58 years long. The work I did in Washington during the Ford administration was as an enlisted photographer's mate in the Navy assigned as a sound recordist to the Presidential Motion Picture Crew and was for only about two years. Photomates often get assigned to intelligence commands because photography is seen by the military as an important part of intelligence work. There were intelligence people around and I got to observe and learn. The fellow who wrote the article about me likes to sensationalize things a bit. I've talked with him about it, but that's just his way. I have lived a very very unusual unconventional life in many ways. If I told you my life story, I doubt you'd believe it.

Someone else in this forum sent me a private message calling your message "boneheaded". They wrote you a reply, then deleted it, feeling it was futile. The fellow who wrote me the message said he is leaving this forum due to its limitations, though he was less polite. I'll try to hang in for the moment, but of course it is immensely frustrating for me to "bang my head" against the wall, figuratively speaking. But then that's the nature of most rational discourse (as my article suggests).
Conspiratus, I am the administrator, and I respectfully request that you leave this forum. There are many alternative forums on the Web where you may participate.

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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 7:41 pm

IP said:
Quote :
Conspiratus, I am the administrator, and I respectfully request that you leave this forum. There are many alternative forums on the Web where you may participate.

Your wish is my command. Best to you all.
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Wed 03 Feb 2010, 11:53 pm

Nice book recommend its, the description looks very good.

With regards to Conspiratus's brief mention of quantum physics. I have had many a thoughts about quantum physics, parallel universes, and man choosing his reality. I have been wanting to bring this up in RPF before but didn't. If as quantum physics suggests that the observer chooses the outcome, simplified explanation, then this begs the question how can it be. I sure in the hell wouldn't choose or wish for things to be the way they currently are or have been during my lifetime. I would read posts on RPF that thought science was the end all be all of existence. Yet here they are fed up with the system of control. Are they not wishing their outcome hard enough? Are they in the other universe where things don't go as they choose? Quantum physics is based upon probabilities. Does someone have to wish harder for this elitist control to disappear if quantum physics is correct? I don't get it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Thu 04 Feb 2010, 10:08 pm

Holy shit wtf did I miss.
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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Mon 08 Feb 2010, 2:41 pm

If all truth is relative, then relative truth is universal and therefore disproved by its own definition.

This forum was defined by a set of rules, in part, that establush that people participating here undersatnd that one of the goals at this forum is to uncover and discuss universal truths. It is one thing to discuss relative truth to better understand it, and to appreciate how it is employed as a technique of manipulation and control. However, it is quite another to espouse its virtues and to illogicly claim its universality, hence, promulgating these techniques of control and manipulation.

As the administrator, I beleive one of my responsbilities is to call-out elite techniques when I see them, and to keep this forum free from these techniques, to the best of my abilities. There are certainly seem to be an endless number of destinations where one can be exposed to these techniques if one so desires.

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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Mon 08 Feb 2010, 4:23 pm

May I direct you to the following book, which is presented in this thread:

The Book of Absolutes: A Critique of Relativism and a Defence of Universals
~ William D. Gairdner

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PostSubject: Re: The Promise of Non-Rational Thought   Mon 08 Feb 2010, 10:04 pm

In 1994, professor Mark Glazer said, “Cultural relativism in anthropology is a key methodological concept which is universally accepted within the discipline.”

If it is true that “Cultural relativism is the view that all beliefs are equally valid” etc., and that that proposition is “universally accepted”, then we are confronted with something that is true wherever you are. If “relativism” is true, then it is false because anthropologists everywhere believe it, and if they everywhere believe it, it is a universal truth, something that is true without regard to culture.

If “Cultural relativism is the view that all beliefs are equally valid” etc., then how valid is the view that “Cultural relativism is false”?

http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=391
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