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 Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"

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C1
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PostSubject: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Tue 22 Jan 2013, 4:08 pm

The banks & Gov teamed-up on the public to create this "Crisis"

Stafford Beer warned us as far as 1973 in his book “Designing Freedom” (see exerpt) that computers could be gravely misused. Instead of using the computer’s capabilities to amplify control variety or attenuate incoming variety, computers could be used to proliferate the systems variety, therefore rendering impossible any form of individual human control.




This is really important to understand, because the same dynamic is occuring across all of society.

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Tue 22 Jan 2013, 5:55 pm

Will comment after viewing...

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Wed 23 Jan 2013, 3:18 pm

C1 wrote:
The banks & Gov teamed-up on the public to create this "Crisis"

Stafford Beer warned us as far as 1973 in his book “Designing Freedom” (see exerpt) that computers could be gravely misused. Instead of using the computer’s capabilities to amplify control variety or attenuate incoming variety, computers could be used to proliferate the systems variety, therefore rendering impossible any form of individual human control.




This is really important to understand, because the same dynamic is occuring across all of society.

Well I am not able to understand the given explanation -- it is just too technical for me. Can I ask for a really simplified explanation, about the nature of the threat that is arising--maybe using the kind of language you would use to explain something new to, say, a six year old... THAT would probably work. (Smile) Much appreciated!

PS I reeally detest Javier Livas(sp?) - I think HE is one of those types that von Foerster described so colorfully. An intellectual
show-off and phony....
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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Wed 23 Jan 2013, 5:55 pm

I'll do my best to sort this out in the Marx to Network Society blog post I'm developing, but it's going to take time. I'm culminating years of study here, or at least trying to.

While I agree Javier is a little odd in his presentation, his work is extremely valuable, and he is the only one trying to expain the concepts in a way the public can understand. This type of thinking has been almost the exclusive property of high level scientists in industry, academica and gov't. Making this stuff accessible to thinking people is incredibly important.

So, I applaud him for trying. And right now, I don't have any reason to distrust him. But hey, I might be wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Mon 28 Jan 2013, 4:52 pm

C1 wrote:
I'll do my best to sort this out in the Marx to Network Society blog post I'm developing, but it's going to take time. I'm culminating years of study here, or at least trying to.

While I agree Javier is a little odd in his presentation, his work is extremely valuable, and he is the only one trying to expain the concepts in a way the public can understand. This type of thinking has been almost the exclusive property of high level scientists in industry, academica and gov't. Making this stuff accessible to thinking people is incredibly important.

So, I applaud him for trying. And right now, I don't have any reason to distrust him. But hey, I might be wrong.

Thanks for explanation above. Smile

Just stopped by to see how things were going. I am so glad this site is here...
Hope your blog-project is coming along well C1.

See you later,
SH
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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Tue 29 Jan 2013, 9:14 pm

ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
I'll do my best to sort this out in the Marx to Network Society blog post I'm developing, but it's going to take time. I'm culminating years of study here, or at least trying to.

While I agree Javier is a little odd in his presentation, his work is extremely valuable, and he is the only one trying to expain the concepts in a way the public can understand. This type of thinking has been almost the exclusive property of high level scientists in industry, academica and gov't. Making this stuff accessible to thinking people is incredibly important.

So, I applaud him for trying. And right now, I don't have any reason to distrust him. But hey, I might be wrong.

Thanks for explanation above. Smile

Just stopped by to see how things were going. I am so glad this site is here...
Hope your blog-project is coming along well C1.

See you later,
SH
No one is going anywhere. This is a long term project. While I may have to focus on other things from time to time, does not alter this effort or its long term educational goals.

Yes, you'll see other efforts fall by the way side, and that's because they were never genuine and always planned for self-destruction.

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Sat 02 Feb 2013, 6:09 am

C1 wrote:
ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
I'll do my best to sort this out in the Marx to Network Society blog post I'm developing, but it's going to take time. I'm culminating years of study here, or at least trying to.

While I agree Javier is a little odd in his presentation, his work is extremely valuable, and he is the only one trying to expain the concepts in a way the public can understand. This type of thinking has been almost the exclusive property of high level scientists in industry, academica and gov't. Making this stuff accessible to thinking people is incredibly important.

So, I applaud him for trying. And right now, I don't have any reason to distrust him. But hey, I might be wrong.

Thanks for explanation above. Smile

Just stopped by to see how things were going. I am so glad this site is here...
Hope your blog-project is coming along well C1.

See you later,
SH
No one is going anywhere. This is a long term project. While I may have to focus on other things from time to time, does not alter this effort or its long term educational goals.

Yes, you'll see other efforts fall by the way side, and that's because they were never genuine and always planned for self-destruction.

IMO, this is the most honest and reliable site on the Net. Thanks for providing it.

Best.
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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Sat 02 Feb 2013, 8:59 pm

ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
The banks & Gov teamed-up on the public to create this "Crisis"

Stafford Beer warned us as far as 1973 in his book “Designing Freedom” (see exerpt) that computers could be gravely misused. Instead of using the computer’s capabilities to amplify control variety or attenuate incoming variety, computers could be used to proliferate the systems variety, therefore rendering impossible any form of individual human control.




This is really important to understand, because the same dynamic is occuring across all of society.

Well I am not able to understand the given explanation -- it is just too technical for me. Can I ask for a really simplified explanation, about the nature of the threat that is arising--maybe using the kind of language you would use to explain something new to, say, a six year old... THAT would probably work. (Smile) Much appreciated!
Let me take another stab at this, as least in a summary fashion.

When one has a system where objects are interacting within the system, sometime referred to as circularity or "feedback" within the system between it objects, complexity in that system grow very sharply as objects within the system grows. So, humans can build machines to help reduce the complexity of the system so that they can better manage that system to their own benefit. This reduction in complexity is called "attenuation" or "regulation". But what we have here is that the banks + gov't + media worked in concert to increase the complexity (amplifying it) facing the public. They did this by bombarding the public with endless loan schemes, deregulation that removed boundaries on loan schemed and risk abatement, and media that bombarded the public with propaganda about how beneficial it would be to play the real estate game and to burrow cheap money. No one in the scheme was "attenuating" (regulating or distilling) the noise coming at the public from so many different source, anlyzing the schemes available and plainly and simply explaining how the public would get screwed if they continued to play this game.

Hence, the gov't + banks + media were all increasing system complexity, to such an extent that the public was overwhelmed. This is exactly the opposite of what gov't and the media are supposed to do, as they are supposed to protect the public by "regulating" private industry and by informing the public of potential dangers, to oversee and explain the noise is to attenuate it. But they acted exactly opposite of their responsibilities, and the public got screwed, and then got blamed for the mess.

Does this help? Please ask specific questions where you do not understand, and I'll keep explaining.

ScoutsHonor wrote:
IMO, this is the most honest and reliable site on the Net. Thanks for providing it.

Best.
Well, I don't think anyone here has any agendas in play, except to try and uncover what's really going on. It would be nice, however, if we had a few more people participating. Hard to know if people are "getting it", "interested", "not interested", etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Sun 03 Feb 2013, 6:36 pm

C1 wrote:
ScoutsHonor wrote:
C1 wrote:
The banks & Gov teamed-up on the public to create this "Crisis"

Stafford Beer warned us as far as 1973 in his book “Designing Freedom” (see exerpt) that computers could be gravely misused. Instead of using the computer’s capabilities to amplify control variety or attenuate incoming variety, computers could be used to proliferate the systems variety, therefore rendering impossible any form of individual human control.




This is really important to understand, because the same dynamic is occuring across all of society.

Well I am not able to understand the given explanation -- it is just too technical for me. Can I ask for a really simplified explanation, about the nature of the threat that is arising--maybe using the kind of language you would use to explain something new to, say, a six year old... THAT would probably work. (Smile) Much appreciated!
Let me take another stab at this, as least in a summary fashion.

When one has a system where objects are interacting within the system, sometime referred to as circularity or "feedback" within the system between it objects, complexity in that system grow very sharply as objects within the system grows. So, humans can build machines to help reduce the complexity of the system so that they can better manage that system to their own benefit. This reduction in complexity is called "attenuation" or "regulation". But what we have here is that the banks + gov't + media worked in concert to increase the complexity (amplifying it) facing the public. They did this by bombarding the public with endless loan schemes, deregulation that removed boundaries on loan schemed and risk abatement, and media that bombarded the public with propaganda about how beneficial it would be to play the real estate game and to burrow cheap money. No one in the scheme was "attenuating" (regulating or distilling) the noise coming at the public from so many different source, anlyzing the schemes available and plainly and simply explaining how the public would get screwed if they continued to play this game.

Hence, the gov't + banks + media were all increasing system complexity, to such an extent that the public was overwhelmed. This is exactly the opposite of what gov't and the media are supposed to do, as they are supposed to protect the public by "regulating" private industry and by informing the public of potential dangers, to oversee and explain the noise is to attenuate it. But they acted exactly opposite of their responsibilities, and the public got screwed, and then got blamed for the mess.

Does this help? Please ask specific questions where you do not understand, and I'll keep explaining.

I am clear on the meaning expressed here BUT for one thing: the words "system complexity" above. I do not see any "system" here -- just govt., media and bankers all acting against the interests of the public because they ARE dedicated to destroying the public and this country (and profiting gleefully while doing so )...

Is there some underlying "System" underpinning/guiding the behavior of these vicious criminal traitors, by which I'm referring to the Govt, media, elite bankers, that I am not identifying, and seemingly am unable to "see" at all? All that *I* see are sick and greedy psycopaths acting according to their natures, but do Not see any 'attenuating' or amplifying forces such as are present in a mechanistic 'System'. That's my confusion -- the word "system".

That's about the best I can explain it at this point. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Tue 05 Feb 2013, 2:18 pm

ScoutsHonor wrote:
I am clear on the meaning expressed here BUT for one thing: the words "system complexity" above. I do not see any "system" here -- just govt., media and bankers all acting against the interests of the public because they ARE dedicated to destroying the public and this country (and profiting gleefully while doing so )...

Is there some underlying "System" underpinning/guiding the behavior of these vicious criminal traitors, by which I'm referring to the Govt, media, elite bankers, that I am not identifying, and seemingly am unable to "see" at all? All that *I* see are sick and greedy psycopaths acting according to their natures, but do Not see any 'attenuating' or amplifying forces such as are present in a mechanistic 'System'. That's my confusion -- the word "system".

That's about the best I can explain it at this point. Cool

This is an awesome point. Funny, I was just reading a huge discussion by a bunch of so-called experts trying to answer your question... "what is a system?"

In this case, I guess the "system" is the, as you say, the gov't, banks, and media as well as the processes that they employ and the products and services that they offer and the public that particpated.

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PostSubject: Re: Cybernetic View of the "Financial Crisis"   Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:50 pm

Very interesting!

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